Why the secrecy?

[Moon]

ParaBellum, your assumption that "apparently everybody not immediately celebrating CMSF is labeled as a "WW2 whiner" is plain wrong. You really should know better than that. We have a long track record on this forum of treating reasonable and rational opposing viewpoints with respect. It's the ridiculous and offensive stuff (which you acknowledged yourself) that gets "special attention".

It is, like you say, absolutely understandable and ok if some people are less than thrilled about the setting of the first title in the series. We would not expect anything else. Which is... why there will be a second title shortly after the first

Martin

[Elmar Bijlsma]

But please do me a favour and reign in the fanboys. They aren't quite as discening in their targeting as you guys and it is chiefly them who have made this CM:SF board very unpleasant to visit for anyone thinking it isn't the Second Coming.

[Battlefront.com]

Yeah, what Emrys and Moon said As usual, someone who is sympathetic with the underlying reasons for the whining (in this case disapointment that CM:SF even exists) tend to see all the knocks and none of the acceptance. I have gone out of my way, time and time again, to say that the people critical of our choice of topic, and therefore expressing doubt they will like it, are welcome to express their opinion. I know I've never ridiculed such people and in fact have stated (more times than I can count) that we understand it and expected it. No problems there.

What people have seen me, and others, lashing out are at the Chicken Littles (the sky is falling!) types that accuse of of selling out, not being capable of doing anything but WWII, catering to a market that doesn't exist, and a whole host of other things meant to be insulating to us. Yup, when people are purposefully being insulting and small minded, we do treat them differently than the mature people who choose the mature and respectful way of expressing themselves about the same exact issue.

"Mother, I would like a piece of candy. I can not have it because I am about to eat dinner? Why, I disagree but you are my mother and I can see that you have more wisdom than I, a mere humble child. I shall then expect the candy after my meal then, OK?"

vs.

"I WAAAAAAAAANT that CANDY!!!! I waaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAANT it NOW!!!! If you don't give it to me NOW I'm going to SCREAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM!!!! I HATE YOU I HATE YOU I HATE YOU!!!"

See the difference of the two extremes? Now, while it might be rather pie in the sky to expect a child to behave like the first case, supposedly people on this Forum aren't children. So when they act more like the second case than the first... well, we gots ourselves a bit of a problem

For you long time Forum goers, you should recognize that this isn't the first issue we've had that has divided the community into "Fan Boys", "Generally Pleasant Suporters", "Respectfually Disagree", and "Whiners". In fact, the community was basically founded by these four groups when we first announced a revolutionary game system that was in 3D, didn't have hexes, and didn't use ASL/SL as a template. Happened many times since then too and it will keep on happening. If anybody can figure out how to put a cork in the Fan Boy and Whiner extremes, that would be nice though we aren't holding our breath.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

BTW, Human nature is at play here. Put a hardcore neocon Republican (aka Facist Pigdog) on a public Forum and you'll soon see a hardcore liberal Democrat (aka Pinko Commie) show up. Same in reverse. They are two halves of a whole, which could be call the "Extremists". After nearly 8 years of moderating these Forums I haven't yet found a way to keep both of these types out of the discussions.

What generally happens is there is a flairup from one side of the argument that is borderline irrational or at least rude, then there is a period of counterbalancing that goes on. I think we have a few more spikes to deal with but the majority of the issue is behind us. Those that expressed hate towards the setting, and even us for going there, have taken themselves out of the discussion. Those that don't like it but are more open minded are still here. Those that are in support of it will find that the skepticism that remains is, by and large, healthy and they'll let it be. Then there is balance in the Universe again and we can move on

Steve

[Salkin]

It's nice to see all of Battlefront assembled on the forums again, but seriously.....is Charles the only one working on the game ?!?!

//Salkin

Fanboy extraordinaire

[ParaBellum]

Point taken. Steve&Martin, so that means you still love us?

I feel better.

[AdamAnt2]

Come guys I would dare say most of us are grown men, it is ok to disagree just do it with respect,You say anything you feel without offending or forming a big issue if u say it correctly so lets get back on track,,ok? Like salkin suggested lets stop this so Battlefront can continue working on our games ,,,,

[MERC]

I was just thinking the other day how stale "wargaming" had become - then I come over to this forum for my quarterly checkout of battlefront to see what happend...what a pleasant suprise.

No doubt that this will bring some changes. Anybody remember the first screen shots for CMBO, now compare them them to CMSF

[C'Rogers]

Just to add my my $.02 on the matter as a casual forum follower, I wasn't surprised at all by the fact that game wouldn't be set in WWII. I recall forum posts were BFC mentioned things like 'We never said the next game would be WWII. For example we have always wanted to do a modern setting'.

On the other hand I wasn't really looking forward to a WWII release and was hoping it would be another setting. I suppose if you really wanted it to be WWII then you might not have taken such posts the same way I did.

[Dinger]

Woah.

"Mother, I would like a piece of candy. I can not have it because I am about to eat dinner? Why, I disagree but you are my mother and I can see that you have more wisdom than I, a mere humble child. I shall then expect the candy after my meal then, OK?"

I'm hoping this is an after-pub post or something. Engaging in "adult" conversation doesn't mean that one party needs to bow in humility before the other. You're suggesting that the ideal "dialog" on these forums is Platonic, complete with us, the humble eromenoi, taking the time between your long-winded responses to lube up our thighs with olive oil.

If that's the case, then why bother having a forum at all? Just come out with news, and software releases.

There's a reason why children whine, and that's because in a power dynamic where one or both parties are incapable of reason, the most effective means of obtaining one's objectives is to disrupt the other. So children whine and mothers beat their kids (err... use "positive and negative reinforcement techniques").

So, sure, if you guys want to treat us all like a bunch of kids, frothing or complaining about a product that as yet has a tenuous claim on existence, fine. I don't need to waste my time here either. I got work to do.

So sorry, that's arrogance. Most people around here (as everywhere else), get really excited about their "toy", and behave like little kids. Dealing with these people on a forum can be difficult. But expressing an attitude where oll of our patronage of your past and future products means that we are dependent on you for your superior wisdom comes across as pompous and prideful.

So in short, I disagree: you can't reduce all the whiners to kids who have had their candy taken away. And "trust us, it's good" doesn't work as a response either. Either state why, or keep quiet until you can.

To me, this is version 2.0; There are any number of design and development problems that creep up in version 2.0, especially in high-talent, high-creativity teams such as BFC. I (and I assume others who are following this) am not worried about whether it will be good -- there's no doubt in my mind the game as conceived will be entertaining; I'm worried about whether you can pull it off. And the signs I'm getting - "trust us; we did it for version 1.0", combativeness and condescension - are not encouraging.

The game will answer the critics much more forcefully than any number of pontifications here. Don't waste all of our time; and don't feed the trolls.

[Battlefront.com]

You're suggesting that the ideal "dialog" on these forums is Platonic, complete with us, the humble eromenoi, taking the time between your long-winded responses to lube up our thighs with olive oil.

No, I am saying "DON'T BE A FRIGGIN IMMATURE PRICK!"

Is that more clear for you?

you can't reduce all the whiners to kids who have had their candy taken away

Sure I can. In fact, I did. By definition a whiner is someone who doesn't have anything constructive or positive to contribute. If someone doesn't like the setting, but is expressing himself in a manner that isn't disrespectful, childish, and counter-productive... then by definition that person isn't a whiner.

And the signs I'm getting - "trust us; we did it for version 1.0", combativeness and condescension - are not encouraging.

It's the whiners that are being spoken to this way because they are being irrational. We can't combat irrational with rational. "Trust us, you've been wrong before" (which is factual, BTW) is the best we can come up with.

The game will answer the critics much more forcefully than any number of pontifications here.

Yeah, but unless we shut down the Forums between now and then, we'll have to deal with the way they work. We've got 8 years of experience doing this. It's an imperfect world, so adjust your expecations.

Steve

[Sailor Malan]

Originally posted by RMC:

Much to learn you yet have, young padawan.

Much to learn yet you have, young padawan. (surely)

- don't call me Shirley

- African or European Pzkw IV?

Just trying to lighten the tone!

[Overman_XXX]

@ BFC

"Sometimes game company needs and game customer needs don't neatly overlap."

Thus, financial loss. That's the beauty of capitalism. Let's not forget 'natural selection' applies to marketing concepts as well...

@ Dinger

"So sorry, that's arrogance...But expressing an attitude where oll of our patronage of your past and future products means that we are dependent on you for your superior wisdom comes across as pompous and prideful."

Well said. Over the years, many game developers have developed such an attitude; "Screw you all, it's our game and our sandbox. Go play somewhere else!" ..,and people have!

Making changes and going in a different direction is admirable; but when the corporate attack dogs are unleashed to subjugate any relevant criticism and/or skepticism to such ideas, it then becomes painfully evident that a lack of confidence and general insecurity does exist.

Question is, why does this defensiveness manifest itself so frequently and intensively in their posts?

[Battlefront.com]

Thus, financial loss. That's the beauty of capitalism. Let's not forget 'natural selection' applies to marketing concepts as well..

By your logic we should have been out of business 8 years ago instead of thriving as we do now. Simple fact is we have never kissed the asses of fools who think they know a lot more than they do. We have instead ignored those that should be and paid attention to those that deserve to be. Obviously this is working since you're taking the time to post. Either that or you think our games suck and are instead here to waste some time?

Well said. Over the years, many game developers have developed such an attitude; "Screw you all, it's our game and our sandbox. Go play somewhere else!" ..,and people have!

Where, in all of my posts, have I said anything even remotely like that? Care to paste a link to prove you're not full of crap? While looking see how many times I said we understand the disappointment and do not fault anybody for it? Or you could not do this and instead continue to make baseless accusations.

Making changes and going in a different direction is admirable; but when the corporate attack dogs are unleashed to subjugate any relevant criticism and/or skepticism to such ideas, it then becomes painfully evident that a lack of confidence and general insecurity does exist.

No, we just don't like being pissed on in public. We have no insecurity about our direction or how we handle anything. You mistake confidence for insecurity, which is rather sad. I've never once attacked the message, only the messanger and the way the message was presented. Apparently this rather obvious and glaring difference was missed by your keen and superior intelect. Go figure.

Question is, why does this defensiveness manifest itself so frequently and intensively in their posts

About the game content, no... I'd not say there is anything even remotely defensive. Strongly objecting to whining and childish behavior... yup, you have seen quite a lot of that because there has been (earlier this week anyway) plenty of that to react to.

So... what you are basically saying is that you think adults should be encouraged to act like spoiled rotten children? I hope you haven't procreated.

BTW, every time we have an outbreak of the "Weenies" there are a couple of people that rush to their defense. This sort of self appointed Moral Crusader role is possibly even more pathetic than the childish outbursts that are being defended. It is especially funny to see said people refer to us as arrogant in such a context since I can't think of much else that is more arrogant than that.

Steve

[Red Necked Dollar]

I brought some neat stuff home from the dump today. A few more succesful trips like todays and I will load up my pick em up and head for the Swapmeet! If the FBI ever quits surrounden my Trailer Park I will have the bucks for this beauty when you release it. Good luck with that!

[Micheal Wittman]

Hey what's the fuss, I read the post about that

where the "Game Devolpers" stated that a "WW2"

arena would be coming out shortly/ not sure time wise/ , after "CMSF" and that the game engine

would be tried and true following the release of

said "CMSF". As i've stated in another post,

we still have cmbb and cmak also the release

of a campiagn engine for cmbb looks like a great

thing!

Yours truly " Waiting for "WW2" on "CM2" : )

CheerZ!

[Madmatt]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

... Now, while it might be rather pie in the sky to expect a child to behave like the first case...

Steve

Wow, I can't believe I work with someone that actually uses terms like "pie in the sky"... :eek:

Madmatt

[Pvt. Ryan]

Originally posted by Madmatt:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

... Now, while it might be rather pie in the sky to expect a child to behave like the first case...

Steve

Wow, I can't believe I work with someone that actually uses terms like "pie in the sky"... :eek:

Madmatt </font>

[benpark]

unless it's apple.

[juan_gigante]

I love pie!

[Dirtweasle]

What I find a bit peculiar is the new accounts created to take, what seems to me anyhow, gratuitous pot shots.

I mean, it seems understandable that a regular or long time customer used to a certain type of product under a brand they are used to is disapointed in a new product. Especially from a smaller house like BFC where you are now going to have to wait N add'l months longer for a WWII product.

Shoot, at first blush I'd prefer a WWII offering all else being equal, but in the face of, or in the light of, BFC's explanation of why they did modern first, (potential burnout, go with the hardest era to model, etc...), I'm happy to give this new game a try. Besides, the concept if not the exact time setting sounds really good to me.

[Battlefront.com]

Some of the new accounts are obviously from long time lurkers and/or reregistered accounts, so it isn't that surprising.

Steve

[Dschugaschwili]

Originally posted by Dirtweasle:

I mean, it seems understandable that a regular or long time customer used to a certain type of product under a brand they are used to is disapointed in a new product. Especially from a smaller house like BFC where you are now going to have to wait N add'l months longer for a WWII product.

Hmmm. I would have expected the long time customers to have an especially large amount of trust in BFC's ability to deliver a great game. And in BFC's ability to pick a setting that will sell. Not for everybody, of course, but not everybody will buy a WWII game either.

Dschugaschwili

[Dirtweasle]

yea, that was poorly worded.

I was thinking something along the lines of a Pizza joint all of a sudden offering, oh I don't know, Fried Chicken when the customer base expected Calzones to be added to the line-up.

Fried Chicken is good, but it's not what customers expect from a Pizza joint.

I would expect long time Pizza customers to say WTF? Chicken are you nutz?? ...and new customers to say very little, except perhaps; "Hey, can I get an order of Cole Slaw with that?"

[riptides1]

IMHO,

I get this serious thought poking through these forums of that BFC OWES you all something. They in fact do not. Comments like "we have been waiting ...", "we don't agree", "I don't like", "I will not buy..". Blah. As a company BFC has created a cottage industry surrounding these gaming techniques. I don't understand why certain members, even long standing members of these forums are having furballs over this. Wait a few more months for the WWII module. I can only imagine what would have happened if they had released without announcing. Good grief.

Post not directed at you Zack... unless you did the template thing. :confused: