Firefight from the Insurgent side

[Capt. Toleran]

http://www.liveleak.com/player.swf?autostart=true&token=cc8_1178445287&p=57253&s=1

Pretty shoddy skills for the most part on the insurgent side, but they do demonstrate the skirmishing, running-away-but-drawing-you-in tactics mentioned in the Crescent Moon Tactics book. Not sure if maybe they got a lucky RPG hit in the end? Note that this scraggly half-squad had a heavy MG (hand-weilded), a medium MG on the side, and 2 RPG launchers with around 4 rockets each fired. Not sure who was shooting back, as that would be pretty inaccurate if it were U.S. troops (I'm hoping it was ING).

Also, BFC, any chance we can get you to budge on the "Allahu Akbar" thing with the in-game sounds? They say it constantly here in this video, and since the fictional Syrian government will be a fundamentalist coup a la Iran, it would make sense that even the professional/career troops would be saying whatever it took to make themselves look devout and committed to the "revolution", this one a religious one. Every jihadi vid I have ever seen has it. I know you are trying to stay away from controvesy, but let's do what is accurate. I know the vids are pretty much all irregulars (though those Chechen guerillas are pretty well-equipped and have some decent training in some cases), but apparently this is just a common exhultation amongst Muslim fighting forces.

[PLM2]

Yes, I would have to have say its pretty innacurate not to include it.

Looks like they were shooting at some kind of compound based on the concrete barriers you can see in the footage

[Sergei]

"Every jihadi vid I have ever seen has it."

The $10 question is, would they be firing PKM from the hip and yelling Allah Akbar if it wasn't going to video? Or if they were in real combat, instead of firing into air. And no, I don't really think that eg. Iranian soldiers are trained to shout Allah Akbar between each burst with their AK. I doubt the Mujahiddeen and Taleban or Hizbollah taught that, either. No, I believe when they film these shots, the camera guy says "ok now Omar and Abdul, I want you to show some real gung ho attitude, empty your clips while praising the Lord! Makes good internet comedy, and we really need to beat that Star Wars kid in viewer ratings."

[kawaiku]

I saw this almost a month ago. They can't shoot their rifles for sh*t but the guy with the RPG hit the outpost and I hope no one was hurt and also that big explosion is kinda worrying as it seems close.

[panzermartin]

100% realistic or not, sometimes its good to look at the big picture. We are talking about a game here, and since most people who are going to play it are more or less famliar with this kind of insurgent footage, I can't see a real reason not to have it included. If used occasionaly, it's definetely not going to make CMSF sound Hollywoodish and FPS like. These little details can make the game more attractive to a wider non hardcore audience as well, since the biggest marketing drawback of CM has always been its somewhat sterile presentation. Anyway, I think Steve's last words on this ruled it out so it will be up to the modders to add it or not. Not a huge issue overall.

[Thomm]

BFC would be out of their mind if they brought any religious implications into their game!

Best regards,

Thomm

[Sergei]

Like mosques?

[nijis]

Re the video, it seems like they might be covering for a suicide car bomb attack, providing suppression fire to allow the bomber to get closer. They wrap it up pretty quickly after the blast goes off, as I recall.

[Thomm]

Originally posted by Sergei:

Like mosques?

Did you see any so far?

Best regards,

Thomm

[Thomm]

:mad: :mad: CM Shock Force Debug 2007-03-19 22-12-58-92.jpg :mad: :mad:

[unsobill]

:eek: what is this a liveleak/orgish subforum? whats this exteme offtopic doing here ? can we get a modder here

[flamingknives]

Source material?

Although I would suggest that the behaviour of insurgents has little to do with the behaviour of Syrian Army units. We're not fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan here people.

[PLM2]

I don't think its just a camera thing because you can hear it in videos from the US side when closing in on insurgents, one recent example would be the room clearing thread video where they withdraw from the house and blow it all up.

[Capt. Toleran]

I've seen the vids from Chechnya too (far from Iraq, right?) -- plenty of "Allahu Akbar" in there as well. Do a search for Chechnya on youtube or liveleak, you'll see. Per our other thread discussion, this is an exhortation widely used in the Muslim world.

Case in point: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c94_1175288348

So nyah!

[ May 07, 2007, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: Capt. Toleran ]

[MikeyD]

Its soooo tempting to use current Iraq as a template for our hypothetical Syrian campaign. I do it too. But lets not forget the "Allah Akbar" guys in the videos tend to be hard-core religious extremists who travelled there specifically to wage holy war against the infidel (and film it in the process). I'm assuming - perhaps incorrectly - the typical Syrian soldier guys in the game would mostly be draftees or professional military trained-up in a strictly secular regime. Maybe 'Allah Akbar' would be appropriate for the game's irregular forces, Hazbollah shifting their resources east to help in the defense. But though Lebanon's 'sectarian' it doesn't strike me as particularly devout.

Either that or in fairness every time an aircraft drops a JDAM on a target the U.S. side we hear a little voice in a southern accent calling "Wooeee! Praise the Lord!"

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Capt. Toleran:

Case in point: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c94_1175288348

So nyah!

That still proves nothing. Unless all jihadists come in pairs, one with a weapon and the other with a camcorder.

[ChrisND]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

Either that or in fairness every time an aircraft drops a JDAM on a target the U.S. side we hear a little voice in a southern accent calling "Wooeee! Praise the Lord!"

That or when they get incoming you hear "Sum'bitch!"

[Sergei]

Originally posted by PLM2:

I don't think its just a camera thing because you can hear it in videos from the US side when closing in on insurgents, one recent example would be the room clearing thread video where they withdraw from the house and blow it all up.

That's a good point. Unless the insurgies noticed that they were being videoed!

But the point remains, I think the videos taken by jihadists themselves have that refrain repeated exceptionally much. Especially since most of them are somewhat pre-orchestrated - ambushes and such like. Would they yell it so triumphantly if they were ambushed instead?

[SgtMuhammed]

Remember the vids that the Iraqis took of the first Apache they downed? You had the reporter and like two guys at first and then they began to round up more people and started them cheering. For several minutes it was the reporter cheering his lungs out with the crowd kind of waving their AK's and farm impliments about. It was only after they were either told to cheer louder or that they were on TV that they started to get into it.

[ChrisND]

Actually yes - first hand experience told me that often when you heard that it meant they were cornered and screwed; but that was insurgents, not a standing army.

Who cares if Battlefront puts it in ; modders will surely get it in.

[Battlefront.com]

Yup, again we have to sort out who is who. The guys in these videos are hardcore religious fighters. You don't hear Sunni Baathist yelling this stuff, and for all I know the Mahdi Army guys don't yell this stuff either. The Iraqi police and Army aren't likely to yell it either. It's just a specific type of hardcore character that does it. In CM:SF we have the following forces:

Syrian Army (various flavors)

Fighters (terrorist types)

Combatants (average guy on the street, but armed)

Of these *maybe* the Fighters would yell it some of the times, the other two groups wouldn't.

Steve

[tiny_tanker]

Call me crazy but I don't think leaving that phrase out will ruin the game in any way. Why add tension where none is needed after all.

[Sixxkiller]

I think theres enough sounds in the game that we can miss this one.

Besides, if one of these "jihadist terrorist types" finds out where Steve lives, Madmatt is too far away to blind the shooter with his shiny head, and Moon is too skinny to be used as a shield.

[John Kettler]

Capt. Toleran,

After seeing this, maybe we shouldn't bomb jihadist film schools. Would get more usable intelligence that way! Also, given the millions spent arming various terrorist groups, should we consider having the CIA issue SteadiCams? All statements about how confusing combat is are now proven, and it's a wonder the cameraman didn't get a faceful of RPG backblast. Could've sworn the guy was going to fire when the cameraman was right behind him. Noticed that both HEAT and HE/Frag projectiles were used, but have no idea what those guys were shooting at. I think I heard a well disciplined Ma Deuce gunner in action, and was that an ammo belt laid out on the ground for the jihadist full power MG in the last part of the video?

Regards,

John Kettler

[ May 08, 2007, 02:48 AM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[Thomm]

What about a compromise: "Charles Akbar"?

Best regards,

Thomm