Body Armour Effectiveness

[Andrew H.]

I have pried the penetrators out of tree trunks and they are very small. It also does not have the ability to do the damage a lead ball round would on soft tissue, unless a vital organ was hit. No deforming, no internal fragmentation.

I remember many people pointing out in the 80's (in the context of police body armor and criminals with AP bullets) that people would actually be much better off if all criminals carried AP, since the AP rounds tendency to travel in a straight line and exit the body would greatly reduce fatalities. (The context may have involved handgun ammo; I'm not sure). Police were not convinced by this argument.

[Jeff Duquette]

I did a bit of additional digging into some of the details regarding common protection standards used in body armor testing – ala NIJ. The 7.62x39mm (Ball) is rated as a lower level of threat than NATO 7.62x51mm (Ball). The 7.62x39mm can be defeated by a 7.62x51mm NATO Ballistic Standard Product. In other words, 7.62x39mm Ball would typically be defeated by NIJ Level-III Armor.

[Beastttt]

has anybody seen this yet

it is a new body armor that is in development but should be availbe next year

it would be a fully coverage as BDU's at about 6 lb's wt

here are 2 links

got this from the Hero games forums(rpg)

http://www.break.com/movies/newarmor23.html

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_32/b3996068.htm

[John Kettler]

Jeff Duquette,

Thanks for a cogent analysis. It doesn't surprise me in the least that what'll stop NATO 7.62mm (a full power rifle cartridge) will stop the much less powerful intermediate cartridge 7.62mm for AK-47/SKS.

Beasttt,

Outstanding find! In an interesting bit of synchronicity, just last night I happened to tune in the Golf Channel while What's in the Bag? was on. Would you believe that in discussing the weapons of a female pro golfer, the show was discussing how club maker Aldila used carbon nanotubes in the shaft design to provide

the strongest structure, pound for pound, ever made?

Regards,

John Kettler

[Battlefront.com]

We are simulating body armor and their net positive effects on combat survival. This will not turn US soldiers into überwarriors. They will likely do only slightly better when it comes to taking small arms fire. Fragmentation they should do a lot better on. Also, info I've seen backs up LtCol West's statement about few wanting to strap on the extra 16 lbs of side armor. That puts the total vest rig at roughly 39 lbs, which is pretty tough to handle. Drivers, gunners, and other guys who are not as in need of mobility are more likely to have the side plates. Not sure if we are going to reflect that in the game, though technically CM supports the ability to do so.

I saw a presentation by an Army LTC who was the head of surgery for one of the frontline surgery units in support of OIF. They should have warned us about the slideshow since it followed lunchtime. But I digress! The point was that statistics don't lie... the body armor works very, very well. I've got the numbers he gave out somewhere, but it was clear that many soldiers were getting hit and staying in the fight. The injuries were being compared against Iraqis and US forces from previous time periods. Side torso, groin, face, and neck wounds were being seen in numbers that they felt were in excess of what they should be. Hence the new neck, upper arm, groin, and side armor options for the Interceptor armor system.

Oh, and keep in mind that this LTC's numbers were prior to IEDs becoming a popular tool of the enemy. Body armor doesn't do much for you if you wind up rolling over a 250 lb bomb.

Steve

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Oh, and keep in mind that this LTC's numbers were prior to IEDs becoming a popular tool of the enemy. Body armor doesn't do much for you if you wind up rolling over a 250 lb bomb.

If someone wants to kill you badly enough, they'll find a way to do it.

[Battlefront.com]

The liquid armor makes perfect sense to me. Anybody who has used one of those liquid filled leg/arm splints can tell you that. Strong, light, and comfortable. Much the way hydraulics do the work of massive mechanical devices with much less size and weight. It is good to see something getting out of the lab and into the marketplace soon.

Oh, and another thing that is helping US forces stay alive... the fact that small arms accuracy of the insurgents isn't nearly as good as it could be. So many instances of some guy popping out from a doorway and pulling the trigger so hard that just about every bullet he fires goes over the heads of the would be targets. The would be targets, on the other hand, tend to hit what they shoot at. In CM:SF this will be simulated, as in CMx1, through the Experience attribute.

Steve

[ August 01, 2006, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: Battlefront.com ]

[dan/california]

Speaking of experience attributes, will you be modeling the fact that Any U.S. forces that went into Syria in 2007 would have a lot of people in them who have been shot at before?

The Syrians have done very little fighting since they got their head handed to them 1982.

[Capt. Toleran]

Very happy (see, I'm not all complaints!) to hear body armor will be modeled in the game. Anecdotally, the book "No True Glory" about the battles for Fallujah cites a couple of examples of body armor saving the lives of many U.S. soldiers and a few insurgents who somehow got their hands on some armor.

[MikeyD]

About the U.S. rifle round outpenetrating the AK round. The new M16 round is tungsten core in a lightweight jacket, isn't it? The press release when it came out claimed it was designed to reduce lead pollution(!), but my first thought was "Hey, that looks just like the old Sherman HVAP round!" And I'd bet it works the same on armor too.

[flamingknives]

New M16 round? Is it not the M855 anymore?

5.56mm NATO has been semi-AP for ages. As far as armour goes, it's better than 7.62mm NATO ball.

Thought that it was a steel core though - tungsten's pretty expensive, although it seems to be becoming more prevalent.

[MikeyD]

Thank God for Google. Shows I'm not a complete idiot (I sometimes have doubts, myself). The M995 round has a tungsten core and a jacket. Its tip is painted black. The M855 round has a lead core with a steel tip painted green.

But dang, that wasn't quite what I was talking about. I would've sworn i read the lead round had been dumped. But i can't locate my original source material. Maybe that was pre-war plans

[flamingknives]

Every day's a school day.

There's plenty on lead replacement bullets that use tungsten powder cold-pressed with tin or zinc. the result is a similar density to lead, as tungsten is a good bit more dense than lead on its own.

More environmentally-friendly, so I suppose that the high cost of the bullet is mitigated by the lower cost of environmental clean-up.

I would have thought that it would be used to replace lead without altering the basic make-up of the bullet, so you would still have an M855 as a standard round with M995 as a special-purpose round, rather like the German 'K' ammunition in WW1 and WW2.

[MikeyD]

Wow.

While googling the subject (flamingknives is right about tingsten/tin combo replacement bullets) I came upon this line from "The Gun Zone":

"Now, the Army has disclosed plans to expand the "green ammo" program to fill all 120mm tank rounds with tungsten, instead of depleted uranium. Depleted-uranium ammunition afforded American ground forces an advantage over their Iraqi targets during the Gulf War. But, since the material is indisputably an environmental hazard, it's soon to be replaced by tungsten, which will give shells a smaller effective range. So a tactical edge is also being thrown out the window along with the depleted uranium... ...Incidentally, as the United States lacks tungsten reserves, it is obliged to purchase the metal from China."

By the way, the site said 60 million lead replacement bullets may be produced 'this year' (whatever year the article was written). No word on the round's designation, though.

[ August 10, 2006, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[panzermartin]

If US soldiers are to have increased protection due to body armor, will that also take a toll on their mobility compared to the "lighter" syrian irregulars? (no helmets etc, just an ak-47 and a pair of all-stars)

[Munter]

The mobility might be regained when these gadgets become popular. Link

[dan/california]

Those gadgets are 5 to 10 years and a real breakthrough in power to weight ratio from field service. In 15 years when the second generation of them hits field service it is going to change the game in fundamental ways. It will create a new class of heavy infantry that will really change the modern battlefield. Imagine an infantryman who can carry three Javelin missiles at a dead run and is almost immune to 5.56 ammunition.

I repeat a suitable power source does not yet exist. There is however a great deal of work being done in the field that is being driven by laptop computers among many other gadgets.

[Imperial Grunt]

I agree that somekind of powered armor is in the mix for the near future, but at the same time, the ever-evolving weapons technology will change with it.

A good rifleman armed with a old M-1939 Springfield .30-06 rifle, firing an AP round instead of a ball round, will probably drop our future force warrior just as dead as anyone would be today, and at 800 yards.

Gear and tech is great, but is no substitute for quality training, good tactics, and tough-minded willpower.

[dan/california]

Yeah but if the other side has to turn out that highly trained rifleman it will cost them a LOT of time and money.

[Imperial Grunt]

True, but not as much as equipping battalions of FFW's in two services.

But our guys will still be highly trained and motivated, I was just being the devil's advocate.

The FFW program is going to turn out some great stuff. But it will not make soldiers and Marines invincible. Infantry work will still be a violent, dirty, messy affair that requires disciplined and well trained troops.

[LTC G]

Hey, everyone. I'm new to this forum and found this tread interesting and thought I'd share my knowledge. I just returned back from a year in Iraq and did my senior thesis on ballistic armor when I earned my engineering degree, so I know a thing or two.

As has been already pointed out, body armor is rated at four levels, some of which have sub-levels. Even within those levels, the actual protection can vary through improvements. When I deployed to Iraq in May 2005, we were issued the new SAPI plates which were still Level 4, but supposedly worked better (and were noticably lighter) than previous models.

Still, it does weigh a lot, but I think people do not understand operationally how this affects the soldier. Much is made about the weight (my armor with attached gear and ammo (120 5.56mm and 45 9mm) weighed 42 pounds. This sounds like a lot, but you must remember that for years the Army has trained to be light infantry and go everywhere with an 80 lb. ruck on their back. With a few rare exceptions, we don't hike in Iraq. We need to move far, we take HMMWVs or Blackhawks (camoflage has become useless). If anything the game should have a fatigue factor for long operations on foot such as occurred in Fallujah. But it's really not as bad as people make it out to be - just make sure your Camelback is full before you go out!

As far as this high-tech ammo you guys are talking about, it doesn't exist as far as I know. Our 5.56mm is green-tipped, except for a few tracer rounds which are orange-tipped. My understanding of the steel core is to cause the 5.56mm to be a "wounding round". This core cause the bullet to tumble, yet stay together once in the body and cause much more damage. There are documented cases of a round entering the neck and exiting through the ankle! We learned our lesson in Korea about rounds that go straight through the body - they don't stop the enemy.

One more thing to claify is the nature of modern body armor. In simple terms, aramid Kevlar can absorb a great deal of energy through plastic deformation (think rubber band). This work well with low speed pistol ammo and fragmentation, but not against high speed rounds or, ironically, knives. The high-speed round snaps the fiber before it is able to deform. The solution to this is putting a layer of very hard material in front of the Kevlar. The material commonly used is Boron Tetracarbide, a ceramic that is one of the hardest substances known. The bullets impact with this hard material send a shockwave back through the body of the bullet causing it to fragment along with a section of the ceramic plate. This fragmented mass can then be caught by the Kevlar and absorbed the energy without cutting the fibers. My SAPI plates were supposed to be good for four hits, although I never had to test this out.

If anyone has any questions about Iraq or body armor, I'll be happy to answer them.

Glenn

[hellfish]

Welcome to the forums, Colonel.

[Battlefront.com]

Welcome! It is a rare treat for us to get someone with such specialized knowledge. Thanks for the input!

We have not yet programmed in body armor into the game. Looks like we should have three classifications for it:

1. Low velocity, low mass

2. Low velocity, high mass (large shell fragments)

3. High velocity

We had thought that we migh tneed a 4th for AP small arms rounds, but from what we've read (here and elsewhere) there really isn't a point since a normal high velocity round can get through. However, LTC G has reminded me about the hardened layer.

My question to you, LTC G, is how common is the Boron Tetracarbide layer? If it is, or is soon to be, standard issue then we'll have to include that 4th category. If not, then it would appear that 3 will work for us.

As for fatigue, soldiers will tire out based on the weight of their load. Given the same level of physical fitness, a Terrorist with 6 mags and an AK only, is going to have a lot more staying power than a soldier loaded down with ~40-60 pounds of gear. That's just basic Human "physics". Whether it will matter in a given tactical situation depends on how the player handles things. If he thinks his guys can run full tilt around in 120 deg weather for 20 minutes while the enemy sits tight without losing some of his edge... well, good luck to him

If you guys think back to CMBB/AK you can remember games where as long as you moved your guys carefully you maintained excellent combat effectiveness, but lost it quickly if you started moving guys around willy nilly. The same will be true in CMx2 games.

Steve

[Dogface]

Whoa whoa whoa,

Hang on there Steve you mean my whole matrixie/jacky chan type tactic, involving slow mo cartwheels, climbing up the sides of buildings, and Drunken Fist Kung Fu I've been dreaming up aint gonna work?? Dangit first TOW and now CM:SF.

crap.

[Battlefront.com]

Pleased to disappoint

BTW, Experience has an effect on fatigue. Better trained/experienced fighters know how to balance their loads and pace themselves much better than nOoBeeS

Steve