Withdraw and die!

[CRSutton]

Is anybody using the "withdraw" order with any sucess? I am finding that any attempt to use in while under fire-even is cover simply ends up killing my infantry. Lost a whole company last night that way. They generally run a few steps and those that are not cut down start crawing til death comes at the hands of the attacker. Problem is that it seems impossible to fight any kind of delaying action. I just now leave my infantry in place to fight it out to the death.

Whats the deal?

[Le Tondu]

That command sounds like it ought to be renamed to "Commit suicide now".

[General Panic]

The advantage is that it gets them moving with no command delay. Keeping them alive is probably a question of supporting the retreating unit with your other units trying to suppress any nearby enemy units.

Edit: I just realized how appropriate my handle is for this thread.

[ December 03, 2002, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: General Panic ]

[Lt. Wecker]

I am using 'withdraw' quite often, especialy when my infantry comes under tanks fire and there is some cover nearby.

[General Panic]

Oops...

[ December 03, 2002, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: General Panic ]

[John O'Reilly]

Actually, I generally find it to be a very useful command and use it frequently. The key is not to wait until the very last minute to put it into action or else by then it will probably be too late. Also, having everyone doing it at once is not a good idea unless you are in the middle of the woods. Leaving a squad or two to cover those retreating is a good idea if possible.

The problem is that you will probably have paniced squads. My experience is that if they are Vets and above they recover this quickly.

So for example, in one scenario I have recently played there is a German platoon of 3 squads, 2 vets and one crack dug in at the edge of some woods. On turn one they are attacked by hordes of Russian infantry. I immediately have fears of being flanked so I order my two vets and the HQ to withdraw. By now, one of them is shaken and I think had taken one or two hits. The crack remained to beat up any pursuers and then withdrew next turn. By the end of the game each squad had caused about 15 casualties so it was worth my while saving them instead of leaving them to die!

So in the end, yes, I find it a very useful command, just need to be careful, not very surprising when you think that it is the equivalent of saying to your troops, "run run the bogey man is coming!"

[ParaBellum]

I use the 'withdraw' command not very often. There's a big chance your men will get mowed down, and even if they make it often they get panicked.

I rather use the "advance" command...In the other direction...

"Vorwärts Kameraden, wir müssen zurück!"

[Redwolf]

Try to withdraw some units without any enemy anywhere near the units, no enemy on the whole map spotted and measure how many of your units go crazy, at 100% global morale.

No, I don't say it is a "bug", but it is very worth knowing that the withdraw command will always have a very high probablity to panic or worse your units (and often exhaust as a result thereof), no matter what the battle situation is.

Again, I don't say it is a bug, it is a game mechanics detail you need to know. Some people make judgement abou the situation to reach a decision about whether to use withdraw. This is not useful, instead of evalutaing the current battle situation you need to evaluate whether you will need these units anytime soon and/or how bad a "!" on them would bother you.

[PeterX]

Anyone ever use ASSAULT to withdraw?

[White Phosphorus]

Originally posted by Lt. Wecker:

I am using 'withdraw' quite often, especialy when my infantry comes under tanks fire and there is some cover nearby.

Exactly that's what I use it for. Don't you just love it when your infantry is holed up in some huts, and the enemy tank proceeds to drive down the road from hut to hut blowing them up one after another. I wait till my infantry expend their molotovs then high tail out of there. It looks really cool when they jump out of the building right before it explodes. The very short command delay allows for some really close calls.

[Sabrewolf]

its the only way to move pinned troops which would otherwise be dead in a few turns

[Terrapin]

I think it's time to ban RedWolf.

[Hoopenfaust2]

Originally posted by Terrapin:

I think it's time to ban RedWolf.

What???

He is making a great point here.

But... if you were a soldier (and you know combat is guaranteed) and your platoon leader yelled out WITHDRAW or RETREAT (without firing a shot) you'd sort of panic because you have no clue what the hell is going on. Confusion is part of the fog of war.

I guess all of "our" soldiers are a little bit nervous right from turn 1. Wouldn't you be if you knew combat was right around the corner. When you are done your set-up, check for vomit beside your soldiers

Redwolf: Test how your units behave under different FOW settings. Or experience level differences...then tell us your findings.

[ December 03, 2002, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: Hoopenfaust 101 ]

[ParaBellum]

Originally posted by Terrapin:

I think it's time to ban RedWolf.

That was pretty dumb, Terrapin.

Redwolf posted his observation in a reaonable manner, no need to ban someone because of this.

And I don't think BFC needs people to tell them how to run their forum.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Originally posted by PeterX:

Anyone ever use ASSAULT to withdraw?

Over short distances, yes, absolutely. It, like advance, represents well, IMHO, having troops pull back in an orderly fashion, dashing and using available cover. Again, IMHO, it is not gamey at all to advance or assault to retreat.

Withdraw is the equivalent of the squad leader yelling "Haul Ass!" and the troops having a chinese fire drill to get out of dodge.

[Nippy]

Originally posted by Le Tondu:

That command sounds like it ought to be renamed to "Commit suicide now".

"Oh Hans, it's just a T-34"

"I'm warning you, it's a terrable beast!"

"Says you! Attack!"

KABOOM!

"Ahhhhh! It has canister shot! Retreat!"

It should be re-named the Monty Python "Run Away! Run Away!" command.

[MikeyD]

I've been playing a LOT of CMBB, but I must admit I've only recently tried Withdraw for the first time. It seems to be useful in those 'when there's absolutely positively no other solution' situations.

What seems to work best is when you give them a VERY short distance to run to, make sure they've got cover, and leave some units behind to give them covering fire. It's definitely not a good idea to tell a whole company to withdraw across an open field under mg fire! Try planning ahead. A couple platoons in a factory building beat back several assaults, then while there's a lull between attacks you quickly withdraw them to the next building. Nobody panics, nobody dies.

[ December 03, 2002, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[General Panic]

Another thing to remember about withdraw is that sometimes it's just too late for your guys. You can try to withdraw them, but if the enemy has too many guns pointed at them, they may not make it to cover.

[illo]

Originally posted by PeterX:

Anyone ever use ASSAULT to withdraw?

Assault works great. Soldiers dont get pinned (morale bonus) and i usually get all out alive. I think this is bit gamey though.

It would be good to have organized withdraw command..even with some delay where withdrawing troops wouldnt turn their backs to attackers and run but withdraw using cover and fire.

[illo]

then while there's a lull between attacks you quickly withdraw them to the next building. Nobody panics, nobody dies.

Withrawing units will panic quite often even if there isnt any threat nearby.

[Big Poppa Pump]

Has anyone tried using the assault or advance command with a covered arc facing the opposite direction to where you are withdrawing to?

I'd try it now but I'm not home.

[PeterX]

Assault works great. Soldiers dont get pinned (morale bonus) and i usually get all out alive. I think this is bit gamey though.

If they're expending ammunition, I can visualize this as a fighting withdrawal appropriate to veteran+ troops and not a gamey maneuver. Kinda like Arnold Schwarzenegger in Commando. Steve may have issued a statement to this effect, but I'm not sure.

Also, with ASSAULT there is a command delay so it does have a downside vis-a-vis WITHDRAW which kicks in immediately.

[The_Capt]

I have a bit of a problem with the "withdraw" command actually.

The act of pulling back or withdrawing in military terms is a controlled action involving LGMs covering and then moving in bounds with the rifle teams. Gernades are used while in range and smoke should be used as well.

That is the theory mind you.

I still think the withdraw command shouldn't mean "rout" which is the feel it has in CMBB. Perhaps I don't understand but the order to pull back should be controlled so long as you have regular and up.

They should have the mechanism to fire in the opposite direction of their movement and there is no reason why they should panic more easily. Again dependent on experience and training.

I thought the command in CMBO at least allowed for quick pull back but it also had dangers if you were caught under fire while trying it.

[Battlefront.com]

John,

Actually, I generally find it to be a very useful command and use it frequently. The key is not to wait until the very last minute to put it into action or else by then it will probably be too late.

This is quite true. I had a COY HQ that I decided to use some other move order (forget which) to get it out of its foxhole as a StuG advanced on it. Bad idea. The StuG hit it killing 3 men and obviously rattling the guys badly. They got up and lost another guy. Then I issued a Withdraw command. They Panicked, but the remainder survived. Would have been better if I had just issued the Withdraw command.

Using Assault or Advance in reverse is not all that gamey. Units are more open to Panic and casualties than they would going forward because they are more vulnerable from the rear.

Redwolf was not diggin there. He is correct. A Commander that yells "HOLY CRAP!! EVERYBODY TO THE REAR NOOOOOOOOWWW!!!" is going to rattle the troops even if nobody is firing. Actually, perhaps rattle them even more because nobody will understand why they are being ordered like this. At least if someone is shooting at them it is a no brainer

Steve

[Redwolf]

I didn't say I am actually happy with the probablity of panic/route on CMBB's route command. But I figured from now on it's better I talk about what the game does, not what I think it should do. I reserve the right to post a disclaimer like this from time to time, though

Cheers