Bannon Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Whether or not this was the wise thing to do, I got used to having the tank commanders exposed in WWII games to help with spotting. Fast forward to Cold War and I’m wondering if the same advantage exists. Does having the commander exposed improve spotting or is it an unnecessary risk? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Limbo365 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 I think that depends on the tank but most tanks in the late 80's would probably still benefit from commander out Many of the fancier optics would have only been for gunners sights and dual sights didn't become standard until the 00's 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Rule of thumb that I use.. Tank has thermal sights: STAY BUTTONED - do NOT expose the tank commander (TC) NO thermal sights: UNBUTTON - expose the TC 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannon Posted January 12 Author Share Posted January 12 Thanks Bill. I’m pretty sure the M60A1 Rise+ tanks I’m driving around now do not have thermals which will give me an opportunity to take in the countryside! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey_Fox Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 (edited) Soviet doctrine was to fight buttoned-up and rely on mass to identify and destroyed the enemy. US doctrine was to stay turned-out as much as possible. Edited January 12 by Grey_Fox 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 Theoretically, we're operating in an NBC environment (nuclear / biological / chemical). But I still imagine the cowboy American tankers being heads-up unless expressly ordered not to. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chibot Mk IX Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 3 hours ago, Bil Hardenberger said: Rule of thumb that I use.. Tank has thermal sights: STAY BUTTONED - do NOT expose the tank commander (TC) NO thermal sights: UNBUTTON - expose the TC Thermal sights provides benefits to the gunner but not to the commander. So I usually will also keep M60A3 TTS and M1's commander unbuttoned. For CMSF2 and CMBS, there are alot of AFV that have CITV and commander video , I will keep the hatch closed for those. as for Soviets in CMCW, I would prefer to have T-64, 72, 80 buttoned, not only they fight buttoned-up but also the tree-men crew team will lose a lot of combat efficiency after loosing the tank commander. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 Yes, thermal sights are nice but they need a decent AC too. Otherwise no fresh air. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey_Fox Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 (edited) 19 hours ago, Chibot Mk IX said: For CMSF2 and CMBS, there are alot of AFV that have CITV and commander video , I will keep the hatch closed for those. Worth bearing in mind that unlike in real life the CITV only covers the front 90 degrees of the Abrams in CMBS and presumably CMSF2, so there are circumstances where being turned out may be advisable. Edited January 13 by Grey_Fox 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brille Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 It depends on the situation. If I expect enemy units only from the front, I leave the hatches closed and the commander inside IF the tank has thermals. But if the possibility arises that he also could come from the side or from the back, I would consider taking a look outside. If I move my tanks as a solid platoon I usually let at least one commander take a look to rise situational awareness. Just be sure the proximity to enemy infantry is not lower than 300m (preferably even more). Otherwise the commander is gone really fast. With soviet/russian tanks/ tanks without thermals I usually let them take a peek but button up as soon as I feel danger around (artillery, snipers ...). Keeping a look out outside shortens the spotting time immensly but you run with the risk to also shorten the ammount of crew members, which is already rather low. A side note: If you have electronic warfare switched on it is even essential to let your commanders outside, as the radio connections break down regularly. This way you can keep somewhat of a working command structure. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holoween Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 In CM commanders who have thermals available should be buttoned up so they use them. IRL its unbuttoned all the way. The extra situational awareness makes it easily the default option. Especially given that at least for the Leopard 2 a6 and a7v its still possible for the commander to look at the display of the periscope so it isnt a choice between the optics. Also loader is always unbuttoned to aid spotting unless actively firing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 In modern modern war scoped infantry weapons have proliferated to the point where if you pop your head out someone's going to shoot you. CMCW? The US doesn't even have a scoped rifle in its inventory! If you're unbuttoned you're likely to be shot at but not necessarily shot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 12 minutes ago, MikeyD said: In modern modern war scoped infantry weapons have proliferated to the point where if you pop your head out someone's going to shoot you. CMCW? The US doesn't even have a scoped rifle in its inventory! If you're unbuttoned you're likely to be shot at but not necessarily shot. Not true at all for exposed commanders. Theyre quite obviously broken and too easily killed. Even in cmcw. Let's not pretend like this bug doesn't exist. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holoween Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 37 minutes ago, MikeyD said: In modern modern war scoped infantry weapons have proliferated to the point where if you pop your head out someone's going to shoot you. CMCW? The US doesn't even have a scoped rifle in its inventory! If you're unbuttoned you're likely to be shot at but not necessarily shot. even without the bug making tcs more easily targetable cm has essentially a parade unbutton. IRL you poke your heaad out just far enough for your eyes to clear the turret roof so good luck to any infantry man trying to snipe at that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 US buttoned. US tanks had much better vision systems and can spot well while buttoned up. Soviets, open up. Tested this one a lot. Soviet tank spotting improves dramatically if you stay opened up. Worth the risk of losing a tank comd. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halmbarte Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 I usually fight in alignment with the doctrine of the forces. US I keep TCs out as much as possible. Sov I'll turn out the TCs if the tanks are doing recon, but if they button up due to threats I'll leave them alone. Same with APCs/IFVs. About thermals, as far as I know nothing in CW has independent thermals for the TC. So I'd expect the spotting advantage from thermals to stay entirely with the gunner and have a very limited FOV. H 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony P. Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 On 1/13/2024 at 8:16 PM, Grey_Fox said: Worth bearing in mind that unlike in real life the CITV only covers the front 90 degrees of the Abrams in CMBS and presumably CMSF2, so there are circumstances where being turned out may be advisable. I'm not so sure about that, I've definitely had buttoned up tanks spot contacts off to their sides, so I'm confident that they don't just stare blindly right ahead. And regardless, I'd say that if you're having to rely on the ability of your AFV crews to spot enemies to their 3/9 o'clock (whether they're turned out or not), you've already placed them in unreasonably dangerous positions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey_Fox Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 10 hours ago, Anthony P. said: I'm not so sure about that, I've definitely had buttoned up tanks spot contacts off to their sides, so I'm confident that they don't just stare blindly right ahead. They don't, they're probably also using the vision blocks. But the tank commander cannot see with thermal optics outside of the forward 90 arc. The LOS is also drawn from the gun barrel, not from the actual CITV sensor on the top of the tank. You can read about testing here: https://community.battlefront.com/topic/142602-abrams-citvprimary-gunner-sight-limitations/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony P. Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 (edited) 5 hours ago, Grey_Fox said: They don't, they're probably also using the vision blocks. But the tank commander cannot see with thermal optics outside of the forward 90 arc. The LOS is also drawn from the gun barrel, not from the actual CITV sensor on the top of the tank. You can read about testing here: https://community.battlefront.com/topic/142602-abrams-citvprimary-gunner-sight-limitations/ I didn't even read that link before trying it myself. Yeah, you're 100% correct. Even the simple test I ran was... yeah... CMBS, midnight, Abrams tank one end of the map, a company of T-72s 500m further away, all tanks looking off to the left. The Abrams didn't spot a thing for half an hour. The moment I unbuttoned the Abrams though... the TC hadn't even raised himself to get his eyes outside the hatch before he'd spotted the first T-72 and had the whole tank oriented onto it. That was extreme, really hoping there'll be some improvement on that. That's completely changed my outlook at least, I'll unbutton even the most modern Western AFVs unless I know for certain that the enemy will only be right ahead from now on. Edited January 15 by Anthony P. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurian52 Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 I never unbutton modern tanks under any circumstances. I figure their internal optics are better than looking through binoculars anyway. For WW2-Cold War tanks (M60A3(TTS) and M1 Abrams excluded, since they basically have modern optics) I will still usually leave them buttoned up, and mostly rely on positioning and numbers to maximize my chances of spotting. The spotting advantage gained from unbuttoning doesn't usually seem to justify the increase in TC losses. But I will unbutton them if I judge that the small-arms threat is minimal and I need every spotting advantage I can get. The short version. Modern tanks: Never unbutton. WW2-Cold War tanks: Default is to stay buttoned up, unless the situation dictates otherwise. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traitor Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 Soviet and Russian vehicles have really bad spotting when buttoned up, I know it's against doctrine but I like to open them up whenever possible when outside of small arms range especially in the modern games as whoever gets the first spot and fires first usually has the advantage. The only exception is if the vehicle has a CITV, then I think the spotting is good enough to stay buttoned up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfgang500 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 I used to work with tanks through the seventies and eighties. We were trained to basically unbotton from M47 all the way through M60A3, for situational awareness. We only had residual light amplifiers in the latter, though. It changed with Leo 2 of course. Especially in the american tanks visibility from the buttoned-up cupola was very bad. So far the real live expierence. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyDog Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 I've had better results with dismounted infantry next to the BMPs and AT-5s - especially if the infantry is close and from the vehicle. Whenever possible, I unbutton. Numbers of eyeballs really help... The Russian forces do have issues spotting things a short distance away. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony P. Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 @Grey_Fox re your earlier (valuable) advice, do you know if there's a spotting bonus for targets to the front of the tank if the commander is buttoned up for tanks with thermal sights? I.e., do modern AFVs like Abrams, Bradley, etc. receive a spotting penalty for targets to their front if the commander is unbuttoned? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey_Fox Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) 5 hours ago, Anthony P. said: @Grey_Fox re your earlier (valuable) advice, do you know if there's a spotting bonus for targets to the front of the tank if the commander is buttoned up for tanks with thermal sights? I.e., do modern AFVs like Abrams, Bradley, etc. receive a spotting penalty for targets to their front if the commander is unbuttoned? It's not a "penalty" or a "bonus", it's an additional pairs of eyes doing similar things. The benefit of being unbuttoned is that the commander has unobstructed fields of view and greater situational awareness, but he won't be able to see through smoke, if he only uses his thermal imager when buttoned-up. I don't recall if he does, and I'm not sure if there's a way to reliably tell. Bear in mind that in CW I don't believe the TC gets an independent thermal imager, just a repeater for the gunners' sight at most. Edited February 12 by Grey_Fox 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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