Disappearing Trees, Shell Deflection and Quantum Acting Shells

[Probus]

I've always thought of the individual trees and bushes in Combat Mission as decoration.  But it seems like my tank shells are taking them out.  It may just be my imagination or graphics card or something.  Is it possible to clear trees using area fire or accidental hits on trees?

(BTW, in my opinion, if a shell hits a tree, it shouldn't explode if its AP or APDS etc... Maybe be deflected, maybe lose some energy, but not explode.  What is the community's opinion on this? Also, his leads me to my next observation:)

When firing shells at armored targets, I think I may have found a bug.  Again, it might be my imagination (I have a rather large one ). Does it seem like the shell type expended sometimes depends on what the shell hits?  For instance, if it hits the ground the program reduces the HE, if it hits an AFV then its AP?  Does the program calculate the trajectory then, depending on the final destination, reduce the appropriate ammo for best effect?  Sort of a quantum type action?  This shouldn't be so since the ballistic arc of an APDS shell should be way different than the arc of a HEAT round.

[Codreanu]

You can definitely hit individual trees and eventually destroy them with enough hits. In fact, they're the strongest armor in the game, even modern APFSDS is no match for even the smallest of trees. Shell speed seems fine to me too, the difference in speed in the modern titles between APFSDS and HEAT/HE is pretty big so I don't think it's switching effect on impact, there is a bug where APHE shells have way too much shrapnel if they miss a vehicle and hit the ground though.

[MikeyD]

Oh, a heavy artillery stonking can clear out an entire copse of trees and leave nothing but craters.

Shell types, in the WWII titles especially, can include burster charges in the base of the AP round to break up the shell after penetration. The 88 AP has an especially large burster charge and the HE explosion effect can be pretty significant. The 6 pounder AP is solid shot and it acts like a big bullet. I used to be able to rattle off different shell types for different guns but I've spent so much time in Cold War and modern war lately that my WWII knowledge is being pushed out of my head.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

This is the result of an hour's heavy fighting and several artillery stonks on an area of dense forest:

We made a clearing.....With a graveyard! 

 

[Redwolf]

1 hour ago, Probus said:

I've always thought of the individual trees and bushes in Combat Mission as decoration.  But it seems like my tank shells are taking them out.  It may just be my imagination or graphics card or something.  Is it possible to clear trees using area fire or accidental hits on trees?

(BTW, in my opinion, if a shell hits a tree, it shouldn't explode if its AP or APDS etc... Maybe be deflected, maybe lose some energy, but not explode.  What is the community's opinion on this? Also, his leads me to my next observation:)

When firing shells at armored targets, I think I may have found a bug.  Again, it might be my imagination (I have a rather large one ). Does it seem like the shell type expended sometimes depends on what the shell hits?  For instance, if it hits the ground the program reduces the HE, if it hits an AFV then its AP?  Does the program calculate the trajectory then, depending on the final destination, reduce the appropriate ammo for best effect?  Sort of a quantum type action?  This shouldn't be so since the ballistic arc of an APDS shell should be way different than the arc of a HEAT round.

Both of your observations are correct.

[ZPB II]

If only one could make ad-hoc extra armor from trees...They resist AP rather well.

The game doesn't handle sequential hits and penetrations particularly well and this can give some funky results.

Spooky things like taking out 3 tanks with a single penetrator or autocannon rounds penetrating through entire city blocks happen.

[Probus]

Its on the drawing board:

[MikeyD]

Our old friends the Taiwanese! I'm not too sure of the logic behind it. Perhaps the wood cuts down on the vehicle's heat signature for thermal optics. Or perhaps it really does a decent job of absorbing a HEAT round and causing sabot to tumble.

Edited December 21, 2021 by MikeyD

[Redwolf]

On 12/20/2021 at 12:11 AM, Zeb II said:

Spooky things like taking out 3 tanks with a single penetrator or autocannon rounds penetrating through entire city blocks happen.

Also happens with HEAT shots, which is a bit questionable.

 

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, MikeyD said:

Our old friends the Taiwanese! I'm not too sure of the logic behind it. Perhaps the wood cuts down on the vehicle's heat signature for thermal optics. Or perhaps it really does a decent job of absorbing a HEAT round and causing sabot to tumble.

It looks like it protects the tracks, your guess is as good as mine. 

[A Canadian Cat]

15 hours ago, MikeyD said:

Perhaps the wood

Or its a great drying rack for your fire wood so you can brew up when you stop for the night.

Edited December 22, 2021 by IanL

[Probus]

I seriously wonder why they use wood? Maybe it plays havoc with RPG warheads? Or maybe it's like concrete in WWII. More of a placebo effect.

[Erwin]

Am playing H2H with Probus and the tree phenomena has been around since CM2 was first released in 2007.  

It definitely seems possible to destroy trees by large caliber fire - when the tree is not close to a tank.  What we have found is that when a tank is directly behind a tree it seems a lot harder/maybe impossible to destroy the tree so that the shells hit the tank.  It may be that AT shells do little damage to a tree, and they do not penetrate the tree.  Area firing at trees uses HE, and perhaps HE is more effective vs trees in the same way as heavy arty bombardment.

However, there is a further problem.  In the Probus game we see tanks sitting between two trees.  And yet the trees still seem to take the AT hit and protect the receiving tank as if there was a forcefield between the two trees.  Tanks should be able to shoot between the trees.  But, apparently they cannot.

So...  apparently, not only are trees that are directly in front of a tank seemingly indestructible, they are also much wider than the graphic of the tree shows.  In this case,  the attacking tanks had to be moved so they could try firing from a slightly different angle.  That seemed to work.  This is one of those rather frequent examples of the player having to learn to fight the "game system" rather than the oppo.

  

[MikeyD]

About the log armor, I recall seeing a couple years ago a paragraph in an article that said the Taiwanese had tried various exotic materials but discovered a good old log array was just as effective at... (and at this point my memory fades)  

[Probus]

12 hours ago, MikeyD said:

About the log armor, I recall seeing a couple years ago a paragraph in an article that said the Taiwanese had tried various exotic materials but discovered a good old log array was just as effective at... (and at this point my memory fades)  

Well there ya go. Concrete evidence that log armor protects AFVs when it comes to combat in intoxicated situations. 

Edited December 27, 2021 by Probus

[Probus]

@ErwinI think the tree trunks are just there for looks and not used in the LoS calculation.  Maybe to show the conceptualized density of the trees.

[Erwin]

23 minutes ago, Probus said:

I think the tree trunks are just there for looks and not used in the LoS calculation.

You are probably right, but there goes any pretensions for WYSIWYG.  As you and I have found, as experienced players we deliberately place all our tanks behind trees as that makes em almost impossible to hit or kill.  

What was a surprise was discovered that a tank placed between two trees - so no obvious obstruction - is also hard to hit or kill as the trees act as if there is an invisible blocking forcefield between them.

[ZPB II]

Just now, Erwin said:

You are probably right, but there goes any pretensions for WYSIWYG.  As you and I have found, as experienced players we deliberately place all our tanks behind trees as that makes em almost impossible to hit or kill.  

What was a surprise was discovered that a tank placed between two trees - so no obvious obstruction - is also hard to hit or kill as the trees act as if there is an invisible blocking forcefield between them.

Did some quick testing placing tanks between trees and could not replicate such an effect. If there's a savegame, send it.

WYSIWYG is a term that is impossible to define, since everything is an abstraction anyway.

[Erwin]

Sure... send me PM with your e-mail and I'll send.  (Or, dropbox.  I can't recall how big the savedgame files are.  I have to send to Probus via dropbox)

[chuckdyke]

2 hours ago, Erwin said:

Sure... send me PM with your e-mail and I'll send.  (Or, dropbox.  I can't recall how big the savedgame files are.  I have to send to Probus via dropbox)

I think the heavy forest tile maybe the barrier. The tree itself the function of a flavor object.

 

[Probus]

Here is the scenario we're playing is Gates of Warsaw Redux:

https://www.thefewgoodmen.com/tsd3/cm-red-thunder/cm-red-thunder-add-ons-scenarios/cmrt-gates-of-warsaw-redux/

 

[Probus]

Today has been one heck of a bad Combat Mission day for me I can tell you.  Just ask @Grey_Fox.  Total SNAFU.  Let me tell you what happened with @Erwin (DAR):

So I have forces in the center forest in Gates of Warsaw.  About 17ish turns ago I called in a rocket strike to plaster @Erwin's and my forces in the forest.  My 'Plan' was to cancel the mission, move it or move my infantry out of the line of fire.  @Erwin kinda put the kybosh on my 'Plan' when my spotter decided to stay in a truck instead of dismount as ordered a few turns ago.  The truck instantly got creamed as soon as it moved, along with my spotter.  So my infantry had to make a mad dash out of the way of the rockets. 

I had the choice of running left or running right so I chose left. That caused them to run for cover straight into @Erwin's 20mm AAA. And to add insult to injury, the rocket strike was off and landed straddling where my infantry ended up running to.  Couldn't have done it worse if I tried! 

Then @Erwin has an assault tank that decides to take off straight towards my lines.  I don't know if that was on purpose or not, but I think it was an accident.  But instead of getting destroyed, he just uncovered a ton of reconnaissance information at the cost of not even a ping off his armor! Oye! 

Well at least I didn't lose any of my armor.  Wait, I better watch it again, probably a stray shot went flying through the forest and took our one of my hidden HQs. lol 

So I say all that to say this.  I need to make some... hrm... adjustments to my defenses and some commanders need to be shot!

Edited December 28, 2021 by Probus

[JoMac]

It's actually interesting...I noticed that when having Armor in a Wooded/Forested Tile that AP rounds seem to be slightly diminished. I swear that my PZIVH was taking a half dozen penetrating hits to the Turret from a M5 Stuart at short range with no effect. However, in same situation but in open, 1-2 penetrating hits to turret would start to cause severe damage. 

Now, in speaking of Trees...Yes, if Armor directly behind a Tree, unfortunately, it does detract incoming rounds all too often. On top of that the 'Tree Canopy effect' also detonates incoming rounds what seems to be about half the time. 

So it seems, BF, gave increased Cover effects all across the board for Trees/Woods Tiles...

Edited December 28, 2021 by JoMac

[Probus]

So how big does a shell have to be before it wins the battle with a tree and at least cuts it down?  I think its better to be in the cover of a forest than in the best hull down position of your life.  Especially for something like a T-55.  An Abrams is accurate enough to tag completely hull down T-55s all day long.  One shot, one kill.  Put that same T-55s behind a few trees, the T-55 has a chance of getting a few shots off due to the addition of the trees blocking the view.  Too bad there aren't any forests in the desert...

[Artkin]

6 hours ago, Probus said:

So how big does a shell have to be before it wins the battle with a tree and at least cuts it down?  I think its better to be in the cover of a forest than in the best hull down position of your life.  Especially for something like a T-55.  An Abrams is accurate enough to tag completely hull down T-55s all day long.  One shot, one kill.  Put that same T-55s behind a few trees, the T-55 has a chance of getting a few shots off due to the addition of the trees blocking the view.  Too bad there aren't any forests in the desert...

I recall seeing this in CMBS. So even the best rounds will be stopped by trees. Hull down is probably more effective, but I have definitely had rounds denied by trees.