China vs Taiwan please?

[kevinkin]

There would be limited urban combat on Taiwan once the PLA established a secure beachhead or a few. Taiwan could surrender within days unless the USA was willing to interdict the supply lines to those beachheads. That would have to be done by air and naval forces which are out of the scope of Combat Mission. The module would have to have a really contrived back story. But the cost of doing the graphics for BFC makes little sense to me. Better for the community to do a MOD. It can be done with a lot of effort. But it will not have any PLA AFVs or other equipment.  Maybe players could leverage Black Sea in some way in a MOD. This combat is best simulated via Command Modern Ops. Their ground combat model is weak .... but I think the entire scenario would more realistic. 

Kevin

 

[LongLeftFlank]

1 hour ago, kevinkin said:

.... once the PLA established a secure beachhead or a few. 

Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

Ignoring Erwin's repeated attempts to make this thread political and sticking to military ways and means, projecting 2 PLA divisions across the Taiwan Strait that are then in a condition to conduct offensive operations is harder today than it ever has been in history.

The Taiwanese army, and the nation in general, certainly could be better prepared, but they will certainly fight, using a wide array of high tech and often autonomous ranged weapons. The PLAF isn't going to eliminate all these things on Day 1 or Day 10.

[civdiv]

I think the most significant evolution in ground combat recently was the Azerbaijan-Armenian conflict. I would like something like that to get modeled to include all the drone stuff including the suicide drones. Maybe info on the effectiveness on stuff like ADA might be tough to obtain. But in both Libya and Armenia it seemed even fairly decent kit like Pantsir was close to helpless against these drones.

[civdiv]

@LongLeftFlank

where are the links in your sig block supposed to go? They all go the same place for me, the Battlefront home page.

[LongLeftFlank]

5 hours ago, civdiv said:

@LongLeftFlank

where are the links in your sig block supposed to go? They all go the same place for me, the Battlefront home page.

Those links all went dead when the old BFC repository retired. I don't see siglines myself, but I'll see if I can edit it in my account to repoint to CMMODs. EDIT: you can't put more than 3 links in your sig now, but I did what I could.

Edited November 27, 2021 by LongLeftFlank

[Megalon Jones]

Honestly, the least important part of any PRC/Taiwan war would be the ground aspect.

This would all be decided by submarines, logistics, SSM's, cruise missiles, cyber war, EMP weapons, SAM nets and deft diplomacy in the terminal phase.

However, Slitherines Command Modern Operations (expensive, but worth it for the database alone) has an interesting DLC dealing with the subject.

Command: Chains of War - Game DLC - Slitherine

[Sgt.Squarehead]

21 hours ago, civdiv said:

But in both Libya and Armenia it seemed even fairly decent kit like Pantsir was close to helpless against these drones.

Pantsir had a horrible time (possibly something to do with the example that the UAE supplied to the US for evaluation), but TOR-M2 did better.....Expensive way to kill drones though. 

[civdiv]

1 hour ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Pantsir had a horrible time (possibly something to do with the example that the UAE supplied to the US for evaluation), but TOR-M2 did better.....Expensive way to kill drones though. 

I think Pantsir, at least the export model, has significantly underperformed. I think at one point they rushed out some upgrades.

[Erwin]

4 hours ago, Megalon Jones said:

This would all be decided by submarines, logistics, SSM's, cruise missiles, cyber war, EMP weapons, SAM nets and deft diplomacy in the terminal phase.

Agreed.  To only consider conventional military aspects as has existed for the past decades is akin to the 1939 thinking of war as a continuation of WW1 experiences.  I fear that a major conflict will be something we've never seen b4 with nations' infrastructures and society itself being targets.  And we need to be prepared for that shock.

[Combatintman]

1 hour ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Pantsir had a horrible time (possibly something to do with the example that the UAE supplied to the US for evaluation), but TOR-M2 did better.....Expensive way to kill drones though. 

The Saudis are using AMRAAMs in Yemen for the same purpose ...

[Sgt.Squarehead]

3 minutes ago, Combatintman said:

The Saudis are using AMRAAMs in Yemen for the same purpose ...

Probably had them gold plated first. 

IMHO we are well & truly on the wrong side in that one.....Quite apart from anything else the Houthis are gonna win.

[Combatintman]

3 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Probably had them gold plated first. 

IMHO we are well & truly on the wrong side in that one.....Quite apart from anything else the Houthis are gonna win.

'Critical' according to the US State Department authorisation of the sale ... still contested by US lawmakers though last I heard.  Otherwise I remain unconvinced that there are any right sides in Yemen.  The Houthis aren't exactly angels.  As to whether they'll win ... we'll see, they're sat on the gates of Ma'rib now and if they take that it will be significant but the jury's still out on whether its fall and the nearby extractives (or rather their revenue) will be a fatal blow.  As always with Yemen, there's a bunch of tribal dynamics in play in that particular area.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Yeah, I've been following events as best I can, there are some truly unsavoury characters involved, right from the top down. 

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Going back to the original subject, this makes for scary reading:

https://breakingdefense.com/2021/11/chinas-mysterious-hypersonic-test-may-take-a-page-from-darpas-past/

Did we just witness a test of the H-20 intercontinental bomber, or perhaps its successor? 

[kevinkin]

Ok, again, if the PLA establishes a foothold on Taiwan with ground forces the war is over. So there is no need for a Combat Mission commercial product of the situation. The defense of Taiwan will be based on air and naval assets. Period. Combat Mission does not do air or naval. 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

1 hour ago, kevinkin said:

Period. Combat Mission does not do air or naval.

Oi! 

Some of us try:

[Probus]

4 hours ago, kevinkin said:

Ok, again, if the PLA establishes a foothold on Taiwan with ground forces the war is over.

I'm not sure I agree with that.  China wouldn't be able to leverage there #1 asset, their massive army, if all they have is a beachhead.  They still have to rely on their Navy and air forces for logistics. If their lines of supply are cut for too long, Taiwan would be able to repel the invasion.

EDIT: Just noticed you said the same thing.  I still believe a CM Taiwan DLC module to Black Sea is viable. It could also be modded in, as China and Russian forces are very similar in many areas.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Probus
Update

[LongLeftFlank]

I always felt a better setting for a China CM game would be a second Korean War, whether due to Kim invading the South wreaking horrific destruction on Seoul but getting his arse handed to him militarily, or (more likely IMHO) his early death natural or otherwise precipitating civil war in the North. Either way, you could expect a total breakdown in the North, with both China and and South Korea sending 'humanitarian' assistance and backing factions (with the US and Japan largely taking their cues from Seoul?).

The South Korean army is fairly formidable but generally organized for defense. So its expeditionary forces in the North (with US advisers?) could find themselves fairly evenly matched with PLA airborne and mech units trying to set up a buffer zone/new client state as far south as possible. But I must confess to knowing a lot less about this than I do about Taiwan. Thoughts?

Edited November 28, 2021 by LongLeftFlank

[Probus]

1 hour ago, LongLeftFlank said:

Kim invading the South

The N Korean dictator(s) will never start a war. Just sabre rattle. They want to stay alive and in power, not end up like Sadam or Khadafi.

So your thoughts on a civil war seem a very realistic scenario in the future with China and 'the West' being drawn in. If Battlefront creates material for Korea it can reuse a wealth of assets. The assets created could be used for Taiwan (both Chinese and American forces) and the historical Korean conflict (American CMFB and Korean maps). Great idea so when do they start BFC? Wait a sec, they are strategy wargamers. They are prolly working it already right @BFCElvis?

But there are those who would say: "Quit distracting BFC from their real responsibility, a Sci Fi Combat Mission! I mean an Early War DLC."

[Probus]

On 11/27/2021 at 7:40 AM, Megalon Jones said:

However, Slitherines Command Modern Operations (expensive, but worth it for the database alone) has an interesting DLC dealing with the subject.

Command: Chains of War - Game DLC - Slitherine

@Megalon Jones, dang you! I saw this and looked it up and saw it was 50% off and cha-ching $$$, out came the wallet and the credit card and down went my bank account balance. And it's yourfault!

Reminds me of a super advanced game of Harpoon.

[Megalon Jones]

9 hours ago, Probus said:

Reminds me of a super advanced game of Harpoon.

That's exactly what it is!  I just finished a four hour user scenario focusing on a potential PRC vs Tawain situation.  It doesn't bode well for Tawain.  Wait until you meet the Chinese PL-15 AAM.

From Wiki......

Quote

The missile features an active electronically scanned array radar seeker,[6] and has a range exceeding 200 km – comparable to that of the Russian R-37 missile. It is 4 meters long and incorporates a dual-thrust solid-fuel rocket motor, capable of a speed of Mach 4

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

The J-10C is a very handy piece of kit, more than capable of handling an F-16V.....Which leaves the J-11s & J-16s free to have all kinds of fun. 

PS - Almost all the aircraft Taiwan is likely to face will have thrust-vectoring, which makes them tricky to kill BVR with anything but the most sophisticated missiles (AIM-120D, Meteor), which Taiwan doesn't have. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Probus]

That may be true, but Taiwan will probably not stand alone. If they do it's David vs Goliath. They would have to rely on a miracle to survive.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

On 11/28/2021 at 2:44 PM, LongLeftFlank said:

I always felt a better setting for a China CM game would be a second Korean War, whether due to Kim invading the South wreaking horrific destruction on Seoul but getting his arse handed to him militarily, or (more likely IMHO) his early death natural or otherwise precipitating civil war in the North. Either way, you could expect a total breakdown in the North, with both China and and South Korea sending 'humanitarian' assistance and backing factions (with the US and Japan largely taking their cues from Seoul?).

The South Korean army is fairly formidable but generally organized for defense. So its expeditionary forces in the North (with US advisers?) could find themselves fairly evenly matched with PLA airborne and mech units trying to set up a buffer zone/new client state as far south as possible. But I must confess to knowing a lot less about this than I do about Taiwan. Thoughts?

On 11/28/2021 at 4:10 PM, Probus said:

The N Korean dictator(s) will never start a war. Just sabre rattle. They want to stay alive and in power, not end up like Sadam or Khadafi.

The Syrians wouldn't allow Al Qaeda to launch a 'dirty-bomb' attack on the west from their territory either, but that didn't stop it from making a bloody fine basis for a game! 

Now wouldn't those look lovely steaming through some really hilly terrain, or maybe a ruined city? 

Of course, if you had some of these:

You would blow them to bits! 

But if you do too well, these guys might show up:

And then you'd need to ask this lot for some help:

Now wouldn't that be a lot more fun than shooting up Chinese Marines in a big minefield? 

PS - @dragonwynn  Now is your time.....Surely? 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Probus]

What are these Self Propelled Guns?