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CM2 Oddities and Weird Phenomena


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Note: Some of the items are only pertinent to modern titles and other items are relevant to all titles.

Re CMSF2 (so far):1)  Spotting issues.  A two man scout team with no binoculars can spot enemy units at close to 3,000 meters much better than an FO (with super dooper optics tech) or an HQ with binocs.  Folks have opined that it's because one of the riflemen has a "Thermal Imager" attached to his rifle and that is why they spot so well.  However, if that is accurately simulated in CM2 then why don't all RL units have thermal imagers and scrap the expensive and heavy laser designators and other high-tech optics that seem so inferior in the game?

2)  Related to item 1) Once can have a scout team, an FO, an HQ, a Jav team etc all in the same location, literally lying on top of each other.  The scout team sees an enemy units - but even after many minutes the other teams cannot see it - they do not communicate.  There is something wrong with the C2 system.  Again... apologists say that in RL they often cannot see what their buddy can see.  However, since the Thermal Imager is so much more effective, wouldn't they simply borrow the rifle with the Thermal Imager so they could see for themselves and then line up their super dooper optical gear on the target so they could finally see it?

3)  The M1046 TOW Humvee crew can dismount and take the TOW launcher and missile with them.  According to the UI it takes something like 1.7 minutes to deploy the TOW and a lot longer to pack up.  But it never seems to deploy. 

4)  Related to item 2) It is very very hard to use any vehicle mounted ATGM in CM2 as "hull-down" doesn't mean that only the vehicle optics on the roof are exposed.  Instead the top of the vehicle is exposed and can be easily seen and fired at and destroyed.  Without being able to dismount the TOW in this example, it's usually suicidal to attempt to fire the TOW even from a hull-down position. (Not sure if this has been fixed in CMCW.)

5)  Same is true for the M707 Humvee and other "Arty Spotting vehicles" with Laser and other high hech on the roof.  All of these cannot be safely used in CM2 "hull-down" as they can be easily seen and destroyed.

6)  The M1114 AGL (Automatic Grenade Launcher) Humvee crew can dismount with the AGL.  However, it must be a spare from the trunk as an AGL remains mounted on the Humvee and can be crewed and operated by another crew or inf team.  Is it correct that the M1114 carries two AGL's?  (Note that the crew of the M1114 with the 50 cal can also dismount and operate it, but in this case the Humvee no longer has the 50 cal mounted.)

7)  UK HQ's in CMSF2 cannot spot for arty or air.

😎 Heavy arty falling on top of enemy troops often doesn't incapacitate them.  While it's true that shrapnel may miss, the shock wave of a large explosion alone is usually deadly as it can liquefy one's innards.

9)  Some vehicles carry ammo that seems to be available for resupply.  But, the crew cannot ACQUIRE any, and/or neither can any other unit mount the vehicle to ACQUIRE any.  Eg: The M1046 TOW Humvee) have quantities of regular ammo eg: 5.56mm etc.  But it seems impossible to acquire any of it.  The crew cannot acquire it, and if you dismount em and mount an inf team, they also cannot acquire any ammo.

10) LOS/LOF issues.  While CM2 is supposed to be WYSIWYG it often doesn't work that way.  One can get down to level one and eyeball a situation.  But, what one sees from a location often is not what a unit will see at that same location.  Eg: The AI can see pixel-wide gaps in what human examination considers completely blocked LOS.  A related issue is that one can eyeball a situation like a road in town and there is no obstruction down a street to target a building.  But one finds that when one places a unit in that location, it cannot see or shoot at the building.  

11) Another LOS/LOF issue.  Frequently we find that a crew served weapon can see and target an enemy only to discover that it's only the 3rd ammo loader who can see the enemy, not the main gun/gunner.  However, it is usually impossible to move the MG or gun a few inches to a position where it can see and fire the primary weapon at the enemy.  

12)  Finding Hulldown positions is often problematic.  Some folks seem to like the "Hulldown Assist routine" available in the game.  But, often it simply leave the vehicle with no LOS to the desired target and one has to waste another turn (in WEGO obviously) manually moving the waypoints to get a hull-down position.  So, one may as well do it manually from the start.  The additional problem is that it is common that vehicles go from having "No LOS' to "Partial Hull Down" with no "Hulldown" option being able to be located in between.  One can spend many minutes dicking around with moving waypoints the shortest possible distance in this, that or the other direction to find a hull-done position (relative to the desired target), but one can only find either "No LOS" or "Partial Hulldown" positions.  It's unclear if this is an issue with the map, (maybe the terrain is strange), or the LOS routine.

13) Some vehicles like Bradleys when targeted vs a building don't use the desired weapon - their cannon - but instead fire their missiles - which often makes no sense.  (Target Light makes em use their MG's.)  BMP's are similar vs buildings: Sometimes they use their ATGM's, sometimes their cannon, and sometimes their MG - even if one orders TARGET LIGHT.  There is no indication as to why the AI chooses a particular weapons system.

14) SMOKE and buildings...  Smoke acts as if there are no obstructions or walls and will drift through a building as it is made of wire.  This is actually very helpful when one is attempting to assault a multi-room building.  But, doesn't reflect RL.

15) When one orders a SMOKE artillery strike and run out of SMOKE, the battery obviously still has all its HE rounds.  However, if you first order HE, when all shells are gone the battery has no SMOKE rounds left - they seem to have been used up as HE.

16) Some SNIPER teams in CMSF2 carry 50 cal rounds, even though they possess no weapon that can use 50 cal rounds.  

17) Park your vehicle directly behind a small tree and any enemy fire that comes from that direction will hit the apparently indestructible tree and the vehicle may be 100% unaffected.  Unless the enemy gun moves, it can exhaust all its ammo in this way.  AI controlled guns especially can be made useless by this trick.  

18) Attempting to resupply a squad one may split off a two-man team to mount a vehicle, get the ammo, then debark and run to where its squad is.  That takes two turns.  However, the teams may not recombine.  A turn later when one again moves both parts of the squad to the same spot, they may still not recombine.  To get the teams to recombine one has to split the larger squad team into two and then move all three teams to the same spot.  Only then will the teams recombine to the full squad and complete ammo resupply.  

19) Heavy HE barrage does not seem to damage vehicle/armor subsystems as much as expected.

20) Some vehicles like the WW2 era 8 wheeled German Rad recon vehicles are supposed to be able to move as fast in reverse as forwards, but in the game move in reverse much slower.  In the game, it may be that all reverse speeds are identical or % of the forward speed.

21) Crewing oddities.  BMP's usually benefit re spotting from an extra man or two in the vehicle in addition to the crew in addition to enabling the vehicle to "Open Up".  A BMP cannot "open up" if it only carries its 2-man crew.  If the BMP has lost a crewman, and there are no other inf being carried, it cannot TARGET - it becomes merely a transport vehicle.  However, sometimes, leaving an extra two-man team in the BMP will enable it to "open up" and TARGET and other times it won't.  Adding a two man crew from another vehicle to the BMP will still not enable this BMP to TARGET anything and the BMP still cannot "open up".  The extra crew are treated as mere passengers.  It's all irregular and unpredictable.  

22) Guns in CM2 aim for the center of mass.  So, even when at short range, the gun will aim for the hull even though it may have more chance of killing or damaging the target by aiming at a different part.  If the turret is less well armored than (say) the hull that can mean that a hull-down tank may be more vulnerable than out in the open, as the turret will be the target. 

23) Tanks can spot inf ridiculously quickly given what we know of tank's poor vision when buttoned up, or in poor visibility, like in smoke etc.

24) Inf is unable to detect a tank that is  a few meters away on the other side of a wall, or in poor visibility.

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  • 2 months later...

26) Some vehicles have onboard mortars that do not need to dismount to fire.  However, if one does dismount, deploy and fire, and then remount the mortars in order to move to another location, when one tries to access the mortars for firing, some if not all of the mortar HT's may say "Destroyed", while other mortar HT's are able to accept mortar fire orders normally.  Witnessed in a CMBN game.  Saved game file available.

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For what it is worth. Plot a waypoint with a move command highlight and plot a fire near a position you wish to move a scout to.

scouting.jpg

From your first waypoint plot a second waypoint using the hunt command to the position you plotted your LOS to.

scoutingb.jpg

Now drag your first waypoint near the waypoint of your hunt command.

scoutingc.jpg

Move the unit you wish to use and plot a route as secure as possible.

scoutingd.jpg

Warning some games become boring using this method. 

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42 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

For what it is worth. Plot a waypoint with a move command highlight and plot a fire near a position you wish to move a scout to.

scouting.jpg

From your first waypoint plot a second waypoint using the hunt command to the position you plotted your LOS to.

scoutingb.jpg

Now drag your first waypoint near the waypoint of your hunt command.

scoutingc.jpg

Move the unit you wish to use and plot a route as secure as possible.

scoutingd.jpg

Warning some games become boring using this method. 

Okay but what do you achieve by doing this

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1 minute ago, SergeantSqook said:

Okay but what do you achieve by doing this

I tested this method by playing on 'Hotseat' against myself. Even if I plot an LOS to a known enemy position and use an experienced spotter the game doesn't reveal an enemy position. Therefore, the function of the scout is pathfinder by finding the most secure route to the objective or by finding spotting and firing positions. Once you get to the attrition stage of the game you enemy will come out second best. 

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26 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Even if I plot an LOS to a known enemy position and use an experienced spotter the game doesn't reveal an enemy position. Therefore, the function of the scout is pathfinder by finding the most secure route to the objective or by finding spotting and firing positions. Once you get to the attrition stage of the game you enemy will come out second best. 

It is a good "system" that gives one a better idea of what can be seen from a location.  However, it is still not 100% reliable.  And that is ok, as in RL one can never be 100% sure of LOS from any location until a unit is actually at that location.

For example, one may not have LOS from a waypoint to a location.  However, if there is a vehicle at that location it may be seen (since it is higher than the terrain).  With experience  one eventually develops a "gut instinct" re what can be seen and shot at from a waypoint.

One could give CM2 a 2nd name:  "The Game of Determining LOS".

 

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On 6/1/2021 at 9:53 PM, Erwin said:

Note: Some of the items are only pertinent to modern titles and other items are relevant to all titles.

Re CMSF2 (so far):1)  Spotting issues.  A two man scout team with no binoculars can spot enemy units at close to 3,000 meters much better than an FO (with super dooper optics tech) or an HQ with binocs.  Folks have opined that it's because one of the riflemen has a "Thermal Imager" attached to his rifle and that is why they spot so well.  However, if that is accurately simulated in CM2 then why don't all RL units have thermal imagers and scrap the expensive and heavy laser designators and other high-tech optics that seem so inferior in the game?

2)  Related to item 1) Once can have a scout team, an FO, an HQ, a Jav team etc all in the same location, literally lying on top of each other.  The scout team sees an enemy units - but even after many minutes the other teams cannot see it - they do not communicate.  There is something wrong with the C2 system.  Again... apologists say that in RL they often cannot see what their buddy can see.  However, since the Thermal Imager is so much more effective, wouldn't they simply borrow the rifle with the Thermal Imager so they could see for themselves and then line up their super dooper optical gear on the target so they could finally see it?

3)  The M1046 TOW Humvee crew can dismount and take the TOW launcher and missile with them.  According to the UI it takes something like 1.7 minutes to deploy the TOW and a lot longer to pack up.  But it never seems to deploy. 

4)  Related to item 2) It is very very hard to use any vehicle mounted ATGM in CM2 as "hull-down" doesn't mean that only the vehicle optics on the roof are exposed.  Instead the top of the vehicle is exposed and can be easily seen and fired at and destroyed.  Without being able to dismount the TOW in this example, it's usually suicidal to attempt to fire the TOW even from a hull-down position. (Not sure if this has been fixed in CMCW.)

5)  Same is true for the M707 Humvee and other "Arty Spotting vehicles" with Laser and other high hech on the roof.  All of these cannot be safely used in CM2 "hull-down" as they can be easily seen and destroyed.

6)  The M1114 AGL (Automatic Grenade Launcher) Humvee crew can dismount with the AGL.  However, it must be a spare from the trunk as an AGL remains mounted on the Humvee and can be crewed and operated by another crew or inf team.  Is it correct that the M1114 carries two AGL's?  (Note that the crew of the M1114 with the 50 cal can also dismount and operate it, but in this case the Humvee no longer has the 50 cal mounted.)

7)  UK HQ's in CMSF2 cannot spot for arty or air.

😎 Heavy arty falling on top of enemy troops often doesn't incapacitate them.  While it's true that shrapnel may miss, the shock wave of a large explosion alone is usually deadly as it can liquefy one's innards.

9)  Some vehicles carry ammo that seems to be available for resupply.  But, the crew cannot ACQUIRE any, and/or neither can any other unit mount the vehicle to ACQUIRE any.  Eg: The M1046 TOW Humvee) have quantities of regular ammo eg: 5.56mm etc.  But it seems impossible to acquire any of it.  The crew cannot acquire it, and if you dismount em and mount an inf team, they also cannot acquire any ammo.

10) LOS/LOF issues.  While CM2 is supposed to be WYSIWYG it often doesn't work that way.  One can get down to level one and eyeball a situation.  But, what one sees from a location often is not what a unit will see at that same location.  Eg: The AI can see pixel-wide gaps in what human examination considers completely blocked LOS.  A related issue is that one can eyeball a situation like a road in town and there is no obstruction down a street to target a building.  But one finds that when one places a unit in that location, it cannot see or shoot at the building.  

11) Another LOS/LOF issue.  Frequently we find that a crew served weapon can see and target an enemy only to discover that it's only the 3rd ammo loader who can see the enemy, not the main gun/gunner.  However, it is usually impossible to move the MG or gun a few inches to a position where it can see and fire the primary weapon at the enemy.  

12)  Finding Hulldown positions is often problematic.  Some folks seem to like the "Hulldown Assist routine" available in the game.  But, often it simply leave the vehicle with no LOS to the desired target and one has to waste another turn (in WEGO obviously) manually moving the waypoints to get a hull-down position.  So, one may as well do it manually from the start.  The additional problem is that it is common that vehicles go from having "No LOS' to "Partial Hull Down" with no "Hulldown" option being able to be located in between.  One can spend many minutes dicking around with moving waypoints the shortest possible distance in this, that or the other direction to find a hull-done position (relative to the desired target), but one can only find either "No LOS" or "Partial Hulldown" positions.  It's unclear if this is an issue with the map, (maybe the terrain is strange), or the LOS routine.

13) Some vehicles like Bradleys when targeted vs a building don't use the desired weapon - their cannon - but instead fire their missiles - which often makes no sense.  (Target Light makes em use their MG's.)  BMP's are similar vs buildings: Sometimes they use their ATGM's, sometimes their cannon, and sometimes their MG - even if one orders TARGET LIGHT.  There is no indication as to why the AI chooses a particular weapons system.

14) SMOKE and buildings...  Smoke acts as if there are no obstructions or walls and will drift through a building as it is made of wire.  This is actually very helpful when one is attempting to assault a multi-room building.  But, doesn't reflect RL.

15) When one orders a SMOKE artillery strike and run out of SMOKE, the battery obviously still has all its HE rounds.  However, if you first order HE, when all shells are gone the battery has no SMOKE rounds left - they seem to have been used up as HE.

16) Some SNIPER teams in CMSF2 carry 50 cal rounds, even though they possess no weapon that can use 50 cal rounds.  

17) Park your vehicle directly behind a small tree and any enemy fire that comes from that direction will hit the apparently indestructible tree and the vehicle may be 100% unaffected.  Unless the enemy gun moves, it can exhaust all its ammo in this way.  AI controlled guns especially can be made useless by this trick.  

18) Attempting to resupply a squad one may split off a two-man team to mount a vehicle, get the ammo, then debark and run to where its squad is.  That takes two turns.  However, the teams may not recombine.  A turn later when one again moves both parts of the squad to the same spot, they may still not recombine.  To get the teams to recombine one has to split the larger squad team into two and then move all three teams to the same spot.  Only then will the teams recombine to the full squad and complete ammo resupply.  

19) Heavy HE barrage does not seem to damage vehicle/armor subsystems as much as expected.

20) Some vehicles like the WW2 era 8 wheeled German Rad recon vehicles are supposed to be able to move as fast in reverse as forwards, but in the game move in reverse much slower.  In the game, it may be that all reverse speeds are identical or % of the forward speed.

21) Crewing oddities.  BMP's usually benefit re spotting from an extra man or two in the vehicle in addition to the crew in addition to enabling the vehicle to "Open Up".  A BMP cannot "open up" if it only carries its 2-man crew.  If the BMP has lost a crewman, and there are no other inf being carried, it cannot TARGET - it becomes merely a transport vehicle.  However, sometimes, leaving an extra two-man team in the BMP will enable it to "open up" and TARGET and other times it won't.  Adding a two man crew from another vehicle to the BMP will still not enable this BMP to TARGET anything and the BMP still cannot "open up".  The extra crew are treated as mere passengers.  It's all irregular and unpredictable.  

22) Guns in CM2 aim for the center of mass.  So, even when at short range, the gun will aim for the hull even though it may have more chance of killing or damaging the target by aiming at a different part.  If the turret is less well armored than (say) the hull that can mean that a hull-down tank may be more vulnerable than out in the open, as the turret will be the target. 

23) Tanks can spot inf ridiculously quickly given what we know of tank's poor vision when buttoned up, or in poor visibility, like in smoke etc.

24) Inf is unable to detect a tank that is  a few meters away on the other side of a wall, or in poor visibility.

LOS in game is absolutely unpredictable and seems like a game of chance with the strongest factor being units's experience level. It's often counterintuitive and plainly absurd, like infantry or tank that don't see the vehicle right in front of them that blocks their road but seeing some distant AFV behind 2 layers of trees. 

In WW2 games it is not that much of a problem, but in modern games, where distances are much bigger, it is. I remind myself that it's only a game and it wouldn't be wise to demand very much, but the longer you play it the more bugs you discover and it becames frustrating. 

I would add the movement pattern to your list.

27) We don't have the option to order troops move quickly, but stop when encountering enemy. We have only option to run and continue running even if attacked by the enemy ("quick") or move very slowly and exhausting and stop in enemy presence ("hunt"). It would be great to have "quick hunt" combination. 

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3 hours ago, dbsapp said:

I remind myself that it's only a game

Yes, I agree if the FO with his 'Laser System' and the best binoculars money can buy would spot the pillbox the sniper 10 yards away from him did a turn before, what could happen? I think and I say think, the game algorithm could not be working that way. The FO can call an artillery or airstrike and has little risk to be spotted in turn. The sniper who made the full contact could run a greater risk to be spotted. The best way not to be frustrated is run a data base of what seems to work and what doesn't. I done one with scouts. I know how to plot a route for a scout, his company can use to advance. He will spot if he is lucky enemy armor or enemy units on the move. His prime function is pathfinding. 

Edited by chuckdyke
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  • 2 weeks later...
49 minutes ago, Bufo said:

How do you get plunging fire with a .50 at ranges of 500 meters?

He didn't mention the distance nor or he shot from a height or at an elevated target. I imagined the MG shot from a distance upwards at the crest of a hill and by plunging fire you can hit troops below the skyline. 

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It was the player designed Baumhalder scenario which is a small map.  It was PBEM and I didn't see the firing unit but checking I would guess the range was probably around 500 meters or less.  It was .50cal MG from either a M113 or M60.

I am guessing the target was probably the air control tower.  The fire targeted upward from lower ground but not significantly lower.   I still have the PBEM turns but I would have to find the specific turn.  The game is over now and the turn was early game.

Edited by FogForever
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7 hours ago, Codreanu said:

APHE (in Red Thunder at least) has an insane fragmentation radius. I've had infantry get killed by an APHE shell from a StuG that hit the dirt 100m away, far greater than an HE shell of the same caliber.

I think this may is a general issue with APHE in these games. @Drifter Man
did some testing and found the US 57mm APHE had a bigger explosive effect than a 150mm howitzer shell if I remember correctly.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 8/20/2021 at 4:23 PM, Bulletpoint said:

I think this may is a general issue with APHE in these games. @Drifter Man
did some testing and found the US 57mm APHE had a bigger explosive effect than a 150mm howitzer shell if I remember correctly.

I'd say it was comparable to HE of the same caliber. I only did a bunch of quick tests so no hard data. It was based on an AAR by Nemesis whose troops got massacred by a few U.S. 57mm guns firing AP. Definitely watch out for these.

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Six-Pounder Valentine in Mountains of the Moon. They do better than the T34/85 or at least on par. Oh, I forgot about the ISU152's they are the underdog in the accuracy department in that game. Bugs like these are not reported I suppose at least if you play Russian. If you find the Six-Pounder Valentine superior than the ISU152 something is odd. I let the TacAI doing 90% of the work they react on full contact, the Valentine's at times spot as well as infantry. 

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