Fire and Rubble: What are you looking forward to the most?

[Aragorn2002]

11 hours ago, Vergeltungswaffe said:

Units other than Beglietgrenadiers with a high percentage of StG 44.

Agreed. Volksgrenadiere for example.

[landser]

I'll go against the grain and say I'm not looking forward to this module, but whichever one follows with 1941 and 1942.

Late war hardware doesn't light my fire. There will be a lot of very cool vehicles and formations in the module I'm sure. But as lethality goes up, compelling gameplay goes down, at least for me. And I am not a fan of urban fighting in Combat Mission, and I guess that will be a focus of the new module and associated campaigns? And rightly so if it is. All of which means this really isn't the one for me, and I am a big fan of Red Thunder.  Maybe I'll pick it up down the road, I'll wait and see it through the posts folks here make after release and make the call then.

We've waited seven years for this expansion, and if I recall correctly, Battlefront once said that the plan would be to do 1945, then 1943, 1942 and 1941, working in reverse. If each of those was a separate module with similar development time, 1941 would arrive 21 years from now and the chances of me still being around and able to conduct a proper battle will have gone way down.

So maybe I buy this one as my last shot

[pintere]

38 minutes ago, landser said:

I'll go against the grain and say I'm not looking forward to this module, but whichever one follows with 1941 and 1942.

Late war hardware doesn't light my fire. There will be a lot of very cool vehicles and formations in the module I'm sure. But as lethality goes up, compelling gameplay goes down, at least for me. And I am not a fan of urban fighting in Combat Mission, and I guess that will be a focus of the new module and associated campaigns? And rightly so if it is. All of which means this really isn't the one for me, and I am a big fan of Red Thunder.  Maybe I'll pick it up down the road, I'll wait and see it through the posts folks here make after release and make the call then.

We've waited seven years for this expansion, and if I recall correctly, Battlefront once said that the plan would be to do 1945, then 1943, 1942 and 1941, working in reverse. If each of those was a separate module with similar development time, 1941 would arrive 21 years from now and the chances of me still being around and able to conduct a proper battle will have gone way down.

So maybe I buy this one as my last shot

Probably a safe bet. I'd even go as far as to say this will probably be the last big expansion of Red Thunder before CMX3. Maybe a battle pack will come out after this, but you'll most likely get your wish in 10-15 years time when they release Combat Mission: Not One Step Back.

[landser]

Yes, pintere, I agree and am not expecting any more Red Thunder, at least in CMx2. If we are still on CMx2 even ten years from now it's unlikely I'll still playing it. But then it becomes a matter of is Red Thunder playable in CMx3, or will it require all new content. I'd reckon the latter, and then East Front would start all over again. But all of that is speculation for the wardroom. I hope Fire and Rubble is a big success however, and I am not ruling it out, just stating that this direction leaves me cold, which is my issue, not Battlefront's or any other member of the community.

All it might take is a few compelling campaign AARs to bring me in. So get those up straight away, if you folks don't mind

[IICptMillerII]

On 2/6/2021 at 6:44 AM, chuckdyke said:

Access the local telephone system in C2. (This should happen in modern warfare too.) Taking captured weapons, innovations (Molotov Cocktails). Buildings allow for subterranean warfare. Berlin subway system, opportunity to make Hitler POW and flush him out of his Führer bunker.

Uh... not to burst any bubbles but none of this is going to be in Fire and Rubble, and none of it was promised or even remotely hinted at. 

Also, using unencrypted, open air civilian telephones in modern warfare is very not smart. Unless of course you like being hit by an artillery concentration mid-call. In which case go for it. 

16 hours ago, landser said:

Late war hardware doesn't light my fire.

Fair enough. Just want to remind you and others reading that F&R is more than just Berlin 45. It reworks the Soviet TO&E in the time period CMRT base game covers to be more realistic and historically accurate. Plus as others have mentioned it adds winter to the Eastern Front, which at least to me is a big plus. Also, the improved infantry AI behavior which is present in all the other CMs will finally be coming to CMRT with the release of Fire and Rubble. Best part is, that part is completely free, included as part of the patch.

I get that late war is not some peoples cup of tea, its not exactly my go to time period either. But there is a lot more here on offer that I think makes F&R worth it. If nothing else it will help round out your experience in summer 1944. 

[chuckdyke]

1 minute ago, IICptMillerII said:

Uh... not to burst any bubbles but none of this is going to be in Fire and Rubble, and none of it was promised or even remotely hinted at. 

Also, using unencrypted, open air civilian telephones in modern warfare is very not smart. Unless of course you like being hit by an artillery concentration mid-call. In which case go for it. 

Fair enough. Just want to remind you and others reading that F&R is more than just Berlin 45. It reworks the Soviet TO&E in the time period CMRT base game covers to be more realistic and historically accurate. Plus as others have mentioned it adds winter to the Eastern Front, which at least to me is a big plus. Also, the improved infantry AI behavior which is present in all the other CMs will finally be coming to CMRT with the release of Fire and Rubble. Best part is, that part is completely free, included as part of the patch.

I get that late war is not some peoples cup of tea, its not exactly my go to time period either. But there is a lot more here on offer that I think makes F&R worth it. If nothing else it will help round out your experience in summer 1944. 

During the Battle of Arnhem, the Dutch Telcom had their network available for the British who had no radio. Security wise not perfect, but they could have used Gaelic or Welsh speakers to solve this issue. The Russians according to some of their documentaries made use of the Berlin telephone network. In modern warfare we have 'Spies' in SF2 who don't have C2 as they don't have a radio. What is the point of spying if you don't have a radio or a cell phone? The man would be operating in a densely populated urban environ ment. Irregulars, partisan, underground is as old as warfare itself.  

[chuckdyke]

15 hours ago, pintere said:

Probably a safe bet. I'd even go as far as to say this will probably be the last big expansion of Red Thunder before CMX3. Maybe a battle pack will come out after this, but you'll most likely get your wish in 10-15 years time when they release Combat Mission: Not One Step Back.

Red Thunder is at that stage of the war that tactically the Soviets equaled the Germans tactically. 

[IICptMillerII]

4 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

During the Battle of Arnhem, the Dutch Telcom had their network available for the British who had no radio. Security wise not perfect, but they could have used Gaelic or Welsh speakers to solve this issue. The Russians according to some of their documentaries made use of the Berlin telephone network.

I understand, but this is still not a feature that is coming with Fire and Rubble. Nor was it ever promised by BFC. This thread is about things people are looking forward to in Fire and Rubble, as in known features. Not a wishlist. 
 

5 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

In modern warfare we have 'Spies' in SF2 who don't have C2 as they don't have a radio. What is the point of spying if you don't have a radio or a cell phone?

They are supposed to move around, gather information and pass it along verbally, by word of mouth. They are not forward observers. And again, using open air unencrypted communication devices on a modern battlefield is a death sentence. EMCON and EW. 
 

8 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

The man would be operating in a densely populated urban environ ment. Irregulars, partisan, underground is as old as warfare itself.  

Refer to the first part of this post. Underground warfare was never a promised feature coming with Fire and Rubble and will not be in the module. 

[chuckdyke]

2 minutes ago, IICptMillerII said:

I understand, but this is still not a feature that is coming with Fire and Rubble. Nor was it ever promised by BFC. This thread is about things people are looking forward to in Fire and Rubble, as in known features. Not a wishlist. 
 

They are supposed to move around, gather information and pass it along verbally, by word of mouth. They are not forward observers. And again, using open air unencrypted communication devices on a modern battlefield is a death sentence. EMCON and EW. 
 

Refer to the first part of this post. Underground warfare was never a promised feature coming with Fire and Rubble and will not be in the module. 

Ok fair enough your reply has been noted and appreciated. Eavesdropping on communications has been solved by masking and codes. Navajo native speakers or odd regional language speakers in Europe or indigenous Australians could be used too.  

[IICptMillerII]

6 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Ok fair enough your reply has been noted and appreciated. Eavesdropping on communications has been solved by masking and codes. Navajo native speakers or odd regional language speakers in Europe or indigenous Australians could be used too.  

EMCON has nothing to do with eavesdropping in on a call, but that is well beyond the scope of this thread. 
 

To get it back on track, the thing I love the most about Fire and Rubble is the winter setting and all of the textures that come with it. Both the Soviets and the Germans get all of their winter uniforms which look fantastic. It’s hard to beat the aesthetic of winter on the eastern front. 
The overhauled Soviet TO&E is also a great plus, as is the improved infantry behavior. 

[chuckdyke]

1 minute ago, IICptMillerII said:

EMCON has nothing to do with eavesdropping in on a call, but that is well beyond the scope of this thread. 
 

To get it back on track, the thing I love the most about Fire and Rubble is the winter setting and all of the textures that come with it. Both the Soviets and the Germans get all of their winter uniforms which look fantastic. It’s hard to beat the aesthetic of winter on the eastern front. 
The overhauled Soviet TO&E is also a great plus, as is the improved infantry behavior. 

it is definitely on my wish list to purchase thank you. 

[BornGinger]

4 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

Both the Soviets and the Germans get all of their winter uniforms which look fantastic.

Will be interesting to see whether the German winter uniform in F&R will look the same as in Final Blitz or if there will be any differences.

I suppose they will look almost the same. But maybe some of the Germans will wear Russian winter hats and valenki.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

6 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

Also, using unencrypted, open air civilian telephones in modern warfare is very not smart. Unless of course you like being hit by an artillery concentration mid-call. In which case go for it.

That would be absolutely awesome.....I don't recall whether, in my discusson of Red comms in CM:SF2, I suggested having the lower end options be capable of generating Contact Markers for the opposition. 

If I didn't, I should have. 

6 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

They are not forward observers. And again, using open air unencrypted communication devices on a modern battlefield is a death sentence. EMCON and EW.

This is over-egging the cake slightly (especially considering how massively over-generous Battlefront have been to the German regulars in regard of platoon level radios).

Spies can't call atillery.....You need Spy Forward Observers for that.  The problem is that Spies can't pass information at a distance even within their own formation (such as it is).

There is every evidence of Uncons being more than capable of establishing secure communications.....We probably shouldn't have sold them all that gear TBH.

It strikes me that CM:SF reflects the US attitude to invading Iraq quite well.....Not enough attention was paid to the possibilities of unconventional warfare. 

But this is a CM:RT thread so I'll leave it there. 

 

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[pintere]

16 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Red Thunder is at that stage of the war that tactically the Soviets equaled the Germans tactically. 

Strategically and operationally they were definitely better, but tactically? In 1944 the Soviets still managed to lose almost triple the number of German casualties suffered in the same year. Even after taking into account that some of these were inflicted by Axis allies like Romania and Finland, that's not an indication of any tactical parity. All the more considering that the trend still holds true during the Soviets' greatest battlefield victories (in Operation Bagration they still somehow suffered more combat casualties than the Germans, although not in terms of total KIA/MIA). 

[chuckdyke]

9 minutes ago, pintere said:

Strategically and operationally they were definitely better, but tactically? In 1944 the Soviets still managed to lose almost triple the number of German casualties suffered in the same year. Even after taking into account that some of these were inflicted by Axis allies like Romania and Finland, that's not an indication of any tactical parity. All the more considering that the trend still holds true during the Soviets' greatest battlefield victories (in Operation Bagration they still somehow suffered more combat casualties than the Germans, although not in terms of total KIA/MIA). 

The function of an army is to carry out the foreign policies of the country. The foreign policy was to be a major power in post war Europe. If you judge by body count than Omaha beach would be a major defeat for the US and a major victory for the Germans. The objective gained made it a decisive victory for the US. Back to the Soviets, their boss was Stalin for whom a million deaths is a statistic. According my sources Army Group Centre 800000 men was crushed and was for this the Soviets suffered 500000 combat casualties and brought the red army on German territory. Terrible figures but on this I base the fact that they were on par with the German army. They achieved their strategic and political objectives. The objective of an attack is to gain territory if the objective is the destruction of enemy forces than it becomes an assault. Operation Bagration was both. 

[STAGEMAN]

 

"in 1944 the Soviets still managed to lose almost triple the number of German casualties suffered in the same year"

soviets use sheer numbers over anything they dont care for their soldiers 

 

Edited February 10, 2021 by STAGEMAN

[Aragorn2002]

On topic please, gentlemen.

[chuckdyke]

Wait till it comes out I still have RT on engine 3. I just wait till it comes out before I update. Like to play 'Blunting the Spear' on the new engine. Pzr4 vs T34/85 is a challenge. 

[Aragorn2002]

The Jagdpanzer IV L/70. Really looking forward to see that at the Eastern front.

With regard to snow, ice and other winter effects, I must say that the Winter mod by Kohlenklau and Kevenkin (and others) really made a difference in the past years. But now of course the real winter is coming.

[pintere]

5 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

On topic please, gentlemen.

It's a rabbit hole I don't want to go down at this stage either so I agree it'd be best to set the topic aside for now too. 

Back to the OP... probably all the scenarios and campaigns that are being promised! Since there's not a whole lot of those being produced by users at this time it's refreshing to see that we'll be getting the equivalent of a stand-alone game's worth of playable material. Not bad for a single expansion. 

[danfrodo]

7 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

On topic please, gentlemen.

I'm looking forward to the winter battles in Hungary & around Budapest, the last big offensives of the germans, w lots of tigers & panthers, some soviets heavies.  I've wanted this since I read "Tomb of the Panzerwaffe" book a few years back. 

 

[Aragorn2002]

16 hours ago, danfrodo said:

I'm looking forward to the winter battles in Hungary & around Budapest, the last big offensives of the germans, w lots of tigers & panthers, some soviets heavies.  I've wanted this since I read "Tomb of the Panzerwaffe" book a few years back. 

 

Very interesting for sure. Apart from that I also would like to recreate the fighting in Eastern Prussia (Goldap for example), Saxony (Bautzen for example) and Silesia (Lauban for example). All German defensive battles followed by counterattacks with some success.

I'm also playing with the idea the create a campaign for the 1st (Prussian) infantry division. I hope the maps of some of these battlefields come with the module, but making them myself is also an option.

The 1st infantry division was one of the first divisions well equipped with StG 44's, so I hope that they will also be abundantly present in normal infantry companies.

[akd]

4 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

The 1st infantry division was one of the first divisions well equipped with StG 44's, so I hope that they will also be abundantly present in normal infantry companies.

If you mean the standard infantry company in the Grenadier Battalion 44, then no, as 1. I.D. had its own unique authorized organization.  There were still plenty of divisions in 1945 with zero MP44s on hand, even though most were authorized the Infantry Division 45 org then (same battalion org as the Volksgrenadier Division, although in game the Grenadier Battalion 45 has 1x Sturmzug per company instead of 2x to better capture the reality on the ground that many divisions did not receive enough MP44s to achieve the authorized org).

Edited February 11, 2021 by akd

[Aragorn2002]

55 minutes ago, akd said:

If you mean the standard infantry company in the Grenadier Battalion 44, then no, as 1.ID had its own unique authorized organization.  There were still plenty of divisions in 1945 with zero MP44s on hand, even though most were authorized the Infantry Division 45 org then (same battalion org as the Volksgrenadier Division, although in game the Grenadier Battalion 45 has 1x Sturmzug per company instead of 2x to better capture the reality on the ground that many divisions did not receive enough MP44s to achieve the authorized org).

I know. That's also the conclusion of Dieter Handrich.

"To carry out a final large scale troop trial during the Summer of '44, 1. Infanterie-Division was sent 2,400 MP44, as recorded in the diary of OKH/Org.Abt.IIIc on June 14th 1944. This was enough to equip all of its riflemen (not just one platoon per division as was still the usual amount delivered to Divisions on the Eastern Front)."

It would have been nice to have that option in the TOE, but I understand that's difficult and complicated.

"A report from the OKH dated December 2nd 1944, points out that by that date, out of 179 Infantry Divisions (including VGD, Div.(bo.) and LW-Feld.Div.) already 56 had been equipped with two Sturm-Züge per Kompanie, whereas 10 still had only one such platoon. The rest was still to be rearmed. "

So yes, there were still plenty of divisions in 1945 with zero Mp 44s, but also a large number with two Sturm-Züge per Kompanie conform the Infantry Division 45 org.

 

Edited February 11, 2021 by Aragorn2002

[wadepm]

I am looking forward to having taken the game to the end of the war they can get started on the earlier years.  I will be an old man when we finally get Barbarossa but I will enjoy it nonetheless - if only by looking over my grandson's shoulder...