Bulletpoint Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 I played a bit of the scenario "Meijel Mayhem" today, which features very long lines of fire (2km+). Then I started to notice that my Panthers were consistently unable to spot the enemy Shermans at 1800m+ range. Of course, there's a random element in spotting, but it just kept happening that my Panthers were sitting there, minute after minute, soaking up enemy fire, without spotting the attacker. If they occasionally did get a a spot, they'd lose it again after firing their first shot. My tanks were unbuttoned. I ceased fire and checked the quality of the enemy crews. They were regulars and greens like mine. Here's a couple of screenshots to show just how many hits the panthers were taking without returning fire. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wicky Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 Can't read the final damage roster - but were optics / main gun damaged early on hence the lack of return in kind? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted March 17, 2018 Author Share Posted March 17, 2018 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Wicky said: Can't read the final damage roster - but were optics / main gun damaged early on hence the lack of return in kind? Nope, the optics were whittled away little by little over many turns. But of course eventually they lost their optics. I had three Panthers in a tight group all unbuttoned and facing towards the enemies. It's a flat map and there wasn't much vegetation in the way. The enemy Shermans did not seem to have any trouble acquiring and keeping a spot on my Panthers. I've never seen this happen before - Panthers usually spot reasonably well, especially when the enemy tanks move or fire. But it's the first battle I played with such long sight lines. Also I haven't tested this under controlled conditions, so it's just anecdotal evidence so far. I just wanted to know if there's any historical reason why Panthers wouldn't spot as good as Shermans at 1800m. Edited March 17, 2018 by Bulletpoint 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warts 'n' all Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 This is how my Panthers looked after this battle too, burning or battered. I was surprised, and just a tad annoyed that they failed to spot their tormentors. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 Ever since CM1 it seems that strange things happen at very long range (1000m+). It was common to have much larger CM1 maps compared to CM2 and I recall that (eg) in CM1 the dreaded 88m was useless when used at the sort of long ranges that it was deployed at historically. Am wondering if this is still the situation in CM2. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMac Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 (edited) Actually, the Panthers Long-Range Narrow Optics (which would come into play in this case) should be a little better (or even superior) to Western & Eastern Armies...It's the Short Range where the Panther is supposed to have issues due to those Long-Range Narrow Optics, and the lack of better short range vision ports. Thou, the Late War Sherman has a Panoramic View, and improved optics (especially the 76mm Variants), which makes acquiring short range targets easier & faster, it still hard to acquire those long range targets due to range. This is where the Panthers Long-Range Narrow Optics come into play, However and in saying this, the Panther still needs to rotate it's turret back and forth to take advantage of those Optics (which takes time). Basically, the Sherman should take much longer to spot long range targets, and the Panther can do it relatively reliable, but taking a little longer time. @Bullet...Delete the Stock Hit Decals, and use aftermarket..., because Damn ! Edited March 17, 2018 by JoMc67 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted March 17, 2018 Author Share Posted March 17, 2018 (edited) I decided to do a proper test of this in the editor. Strangely, I can't replicate the lack of spotting. At 1900m, five regular Panthers spot most of 5 Shermans within 20 seconds, and engage them. (hazy conditions) I'm wondering if it's because there's some kind of hidden suppression effect from having shells bounce off the tank, even though no suppression is shown in the meter? Edited March 17, 2018 by Bulletpoint 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMac Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said: I decided to do a proper test of this in the editor. Strangely, I can't replicate the lack of spotting. At 1900m, five regular Panthers spot most of 5 Shermans within 20 seconds, and engage them. (hazy conditions) Well, that spotting time definitely seems a little to quick IMHO, but at least it's an interesting test. Edited March 17, 2018 by JoMc67 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted March 17, 2018 Author Share Posted March 17, 2018 On a completely flat map, I can't replicate the problem. If there's an issue, it must have to do with how the Panther "reads" the terrain, so that in some situations, it can't get LOS while the enemy tank can.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 (edited) Might the background against which the tanks are being observed be a factor.....Not familiar with the scenario in question. Edited March 17, 2018 by Sgt.Squarehead 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMac Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 Nope, Background in CM is not Modelled. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 Sherman has the (small) advantage of gunner also having an auxiliary periscope besides his telescopic sight. Helps with situational awareness on the battlefield. Panther high magnification telescopic sight has an advantage at long range but closer-in it turns into a disadvantage because gunner is basically looking through a soda straw at the world. Also there's 'soft factors'. A player is likely to push things harder with a Panther than with a Sherman then get himself in trouble. I always make that mistake. Panthers, Tigers, Abrams - my misplaced sense of invulnerability always comes around to bite me in the arse. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted March 17, 2018 Author Share Posted March 17, 2018 16 minutes ago, MikeyD said: Also there's 'soft factors'. A player is likely to push things harder with a Panther than with a Sherman then get himself in trouble. I always make that mistake. Panthers, Tigers, Abrams - my misplaced sense of invulnerability always comes around to bite me in the arse. Yep, that can also be a factor. In this case though, I think I was being quite careful. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 On 3/17/2018 at 2:42 PM, MikeyD said: Sherman has the (small) advantage of gunner also having an auxiliary periscope besides his telescopic sight. Helps with situational awareness on the battlefield. Panther high magnification telescopic sight has an advantage at long range but closer-in it turns into a disadvantage because gunner is basically looking through a soda straw at the world. Also there's 'soft factors'. A player is likely to push things harder with a Panther than with a Sherman then get himself in trouble. I always make that mistake. Panthers, Tigers, Abrams - my misplaced sense of invulnerability always comes around to bite me in the arse. My Jentz is not at hand, and my intern is otherwise engaged or else I'd tell her to scamper off and get it for me, but I thought the Panther had a dual magnification telescope for the gunner? A low mag (1.7x?) and the higher mag (5x?). Hmmm... I think I shall ring the bell and have that book brought to me. As to the situation that the OP mentioned, sometimes odd things happen... I'd look at crew soft-factors. I'm pretty sure that lower quality crews are not as able to utilize specialized equipment as well as higher quality crews would. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 Sorry for the delay. I'm deucedly embarrassed, but my intern was a bit slow. I've castigated her and ensured she understands how perilously close she has come to having to seek other employment. The TZF12a monocular sight, as installed in the G model the OP has shown us, had 2.5x and 5x magnification. 28^ field of view at 2.5x (and half that at 5x). I'm not sure where my recollection of 1.7x came from. I'm having my intern produce a series of flashcards, and hand-built 1:48 scale models, of all the WWII AFVs and we shall commence a campaign of spot-quizzing later this afternoon. Dreadfully sorry about the mix up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 I find that many times the situation you had might be because of smoke from the guns of the firing units. Shermans spotted first, fired and the smoke from their discharge is helping them from being spotted from the panthers. The speed and direction of the wind has a factor in this as to how long and what it might be affecting. But if I had to make a guess, that would be it. Thus the reason when you tried to run a test you are not able to duplicate it. just as a side note, if the wind is from your back or front, this is when the biggest impact is felt in the game. (especially in the tank duels at times) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted March 20, 2018 Author Share Posted March 20, 2018 33 minutes ago, slysniper said: I find that many times the situation you had might be because of smoke from the guns of the firing units. Shermans spotted first, fired and the smoke from their discharge is helping them from being spotted from the panthers. The speed and direction of the wind has a factor in this as to how long and what it might be affecting. It's a good guess, but I did a test for that too. The conditions in the scenario (cold) mean that no dust is kicked up. 44 minutes ago, slysniper said: just as a side note, if the wind is from your back or front, this is when the biggest impact is felt in the game. (especially in the tank duels at times) Actually wind direction doesn't really matter much. I tested this out too. When setting strongest possible wind to come straight from the side, the dust cloud still travels quite a distance straight ahead before the wind catches it and moves it aside. It seems dust is much less affected by wind than smoke. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerKommissar Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 Here's a good video about the visibility in a Panther: Inside the Panther On 3/17/2018 at 12:21 PM, Erwin said: Ever since CM1 it seems that strange things happen at very long range (1000m+). It was common to have much larger CM1 maps compared to CM2 and I recall that (eg) in CM1 the dreaded 88m was useless when used at the sort of long ranges that it was deployed at historically. Am wondering if this is still the situation in CM2. I remember playing the last mission in one of the US Campaigns from CM:BN. It was a huge map, and there was a nest of 88s in a wooded hill. They were on the left flank, as most of the fighting had on the rightside. They would quickly knock out Shermans that peeked out of hedgerows or zoomed from cover to cover. I dreaded the HE, too. Squads had to be quick, in order to not be shot at with a decent explosive. My advance was pinned until I dumped a bunch of artillery there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domfluff Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 If you're saying you can't replicate this on flat terrain, perhaps it's the commander's viewing point that's the difference? If the periscope on a Sherman is a little bit higher, for example, then maybe we're dealing with micro-terrain blocking the line of sight by a couple of inches? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted March 21, 2018 Author Share Posted March 21, 2018 (edited) 41 minutes ago, domfluff said: If you're saying you can't replicate this on flat terrain, perhaps it's the commander's viewing point that's the difference? If the periscope on a Sherman is a little bit higher, for example, then maybe we're dealing with micro-terrain blocking the line of sight by a couple of inches? Hm, you might be on to something here. But I think a Panther is taller than a Sherman. There were a few lines of sparse trees between the Shermans and Panthers in the actual scenario. Maybe trees block the vision of Panthers much more than the Shermans? The logic would be that Panthers, being taller, get vision blocked by foliage, while Shermans, being shorter, can peek under the foliage? Edited March 21, 2018 by Bulletpoint 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domfluff Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 Something like that would be my assumption. Would be incredibly hard to recreate or prove, without some kind of LOS ray-trace visualiser though. Sherman has a periscope on the very top of the commander's hatch, does a Panther? It looks like it does, but I'm not sure. I don't think the foliage works quite that way. From what Steve has said earlier, LOS and LOF work in two different ways. The visual representation of foliage doesn't actually do anything, but the bare trunks do block LOS and LOF. The tree tiles then impede LOS spotting, in much the same way they do in Advanced Squad Leader or Combat Commander (i.e., each tile of impeding terrain adds an impediment). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 There isn't enough information to really make a determination as to what happened in this instance... 1. It looks like your Panthers were in the open.. how were the Shermans arrayed: hull down, in a woodline, behind obstacles? 2. Were the Panthers moving? 3. Were the Shermans moving? A lot goes into an armor match-up and it isn't as simple as who has the better optics, or even the better crew. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warts 'n' all Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 I won't spoil things for people who haven't played this excellent battle. But, Bill hits three nails smack on the head. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 14 minutes ago, Warts 'n' all said: I won't spoil things for people who haven't played this excellent battle. But, Bill hits three nails smack on the head. Having played @Bil Hardenberger in an AAR and watched all of his other ones, I can attest to the fact that Bil hits more than just nails smack on the head. If your tank even peeps out a little bit...he's there with a hammer. Sigh. The worst part? How polite he is about it. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted March 22, 2018 Author Share Posted March 22, 2018 9 hours ago, Bil Hardenberger said: There isn't enough information to really make a determination as to what happened in this instance... 1. It looks like your Panthers were in the open.. how were the Shermans arrayed: hull down, in a woodline, behind obstacles? 2. Were the Panthers moving? 3. Were the Shermans moving? A lot goes into an armor match-up and it isn't as simple as who has the better optics, or even the better crew. It's a nearly flat map crossed by various fences etc, so it looks like both sides are very slightly hull down to the other side. There are some lines of sparse trees separating the sides too. Shermans were stationary and Panthers moving into position, so it's natural that the Shermans spot the Panthers first. However, the issue was that the Panthers never seem to spot back. I agree of course that many factors go into an armour match up, and I'm just trying to find out what I'm missing here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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