Do Target Arcs & Hide = Ambush?

[MOS:96B2P]

I have read different accounts of how best to execute an ambush and if the Hide command and a Target Arc will do the job.  I was under the impression that if troops were on Hide they would lay face down and often allow the OpFor to walk or drive up to them and shoot them.  In fact a few years ago I thought I had this happen in a PBEM.  (But maybe I didn’t have a Target Arc with the Hide command?  Don’t remember for sure.) 

 

My SOP has been to leave a few teams un-hid until they spotted the OpFor coming close to friendly positions and then un-hide the rest of the teams.  Over the last few months I have had a few teams with Target Arcs that I put on Hide due to incoming artillery and then forgot to un-hide them.  To my surprise when OpFor troops entered the Target Arcs the friendly teams un-hid themselves and opened fire.  In the last few PBEM games I intentionally started to use Hide with a Target Arc and it seemed to work as an ambush type tactic.  I also tried it out in one of my training/testing maps and the Target Arc / Hide commands worked again.

 

Below are some screenshots of the experiment (not a proper test as Vanir would do) that I took and thought I would share for review and possible feedback before I officially update my TACSOP.

 

This US team volunteered for the experiment.   

 

The team will move into an OpFor Target Arc while the Opfor team is on the Hide command. 

 

The US team entered the Target Arc.  The OpFor team un-hid on their own and engaged. 

 

The OpFor is outside the US Target Arc so the US team does not return fire. 

 

 

 

 

 

[gnarly]

I'd presume the same behavior with an OPFOR AT team on Hide and Target Armour Arc, versus a US tank? With no dinging of the tank with rifle fire prior to the AT launch to 'give-away' the ambush?

[A Canadian Cat]

Wow I'm shocked.  Really I am.  I definitely have had troops who were hiding wiped out without reacting hardly at all.  I have to ask though how many times did you run this experiment?  Also how was the ambush team at spotting the Americans?  Hiding troops ability to spot the enemy has been in my experience where the problem with reacting lies - if you cannot see the enemy you cannot react.

 

This proves once again that nothing beats trying it out.

 

PS.  BTW the "A Team" would *never* allow such a thing to happen to them

Edited July 20, 2015 by IanL

[womble]

What's the range, there? It looks pretty close. Have you tried the same thing without the TA? In the open (or "standing out like a sore thumb, like you do in foxholes") I'd expect the Hide command to permit firing at that close a range, since it's almost a guarantee of having been spotted. Had the "A team" spotted the Germans in their foxholes at the point they were fired upon (we learned a while back that an enemy spotted outside a Hunting unit's TA will not cause the unit to halt and go to ground)?

[slysniper]

It works, but what you are not understanding is that the unit with the hide command on will not spot well in many situations.

 

Thus many players find it not working because the enemy walks right up on top of them before they spot and open up from their hidden position.

 

I personally use this set up concept as you show, but I add one thing. I always make sure to have some overwatch that is not hidden that will engage the enemy if my hiding units do not spot them. So at the worst, the enemy enters my kill zone, overwatch opens up, stops them for the first minute. I can then unhide all my hidden units and within moments I will have all my firepower I can muster being added into the ambush.

[AlexUK]

Ooh, nice tactic!

[GreenAsJade]

Just to second what slysniper said: spotting is _really bad_ while hidden.  

 

Especially (IME) inside buildings.  Guys hiding in buildings don't seem to see anything outside of them.   I guess they climb in a cupboard or under the chairs or something...

Edited July 20, 2015 by GreenAsJade

[MOS:96B2P]

I'd presume the same behavior with an OPFOR AT team on Hide and Target Armour Arc, versus a US tank? With no dinging of the tank with rifle fire prior to the AT launch to 'give-away' the ambush?

 

I think so.  I will have to test that next and also tank vs tank.

 

I have to ask though how many times did you run this experiment?  Also how was the ambush team at spotting the Americans?  Hiding troops ability to spot the enemy has been in my experience where the problem with reacting lies - if you cannot see the enemy you cannot react.

 

PS.  BTW the "A Team" would *never* allow such a thing to happen to them

 

In games I did it about three times.  In the more or less controlled environment of my training/testing map I did it five times.  The OpFor spotted the Americans prior to the US team entering the Target Arc.  The Americans were using Move and Quick prior to Hunting into the TA.  The US would temporarily drop out of sight when they reached a way point and changed movement orders.  Then re-appear when movement resumed.  

 

That team followed orders well just like the team I used for the flamethrower test........

 http://community.battlefront.com/topic/119563-flamethrowers-and-friendly-troops/  

 

PS - Did you notice the cool unit icons in the first screenshot?  Thanks for those.  I hope you do Red Thunder some day.   

 

What's the range, there? It looks pretty close. Have you tried the same thing without the TA? In the open (or "standing out like a sore thumb, like you do in foxholes") I'd expect the Hide command to permit firing at that close a range, since it's almost a guarantee of having been spotted. Had the "A team" spotted the Germans in their foxholes at the point they were fired upon (we learned a while back that an enemy spotted outside a Hunting unit's TA will not cause the unit to halt and go to ground)?

 

The original range was 75 meters.  I increased the range to 95 meters with the same result.  (I did this on my bounding attack range which is 100 meters long)  Guess I will have to go back into the scenario editor and create a proper ambush training range for this map.

 

In all runs the OpFor were in the foxholes.  The A-team spotted the foxholes before the shooting but had no contact icon for the hiding OpFor.  

 

I removed the the OpFor Target Arc and ran it again at 95 meters.  The OpFor did not shoot.

 

I ran it again at 46 meters with a Target Arc.  The OpFor fired on the US team outside of the TA.  This one surprised me.     

 

It works, but what you are not understanding is that the unit with the hide command on will not spot well in many situations.

 

Thus many players find it not working because the enemy walks right up on top of them before they spot and open up from their hidden position.

 

This was pretty much my understanding also.  I will have to play around with this some more after I create a proper ambush training range with some cover and concealment and maybe some buildings and see what happens then. 

 

[A Canadian Cat]

I think so.  I will have to test that next and also tank vs tank.

 

In games I did it about three times.  In the more or less controlled environment of my training/testing map I did it five times.

Excellent.  Good to know.  I have been avoiding do what you have setup here and using a tactic similar to @slysniper - which works well.  Good to know there might me more flexibility available.

 

PS - Did you notice the cool unit icons in the first screenshot?  Thanks for those.  I hope you do Red Thunder some day.

 

You know I actually missed that - it just looks so normal to me   I am glad you like them.

 

Oh you have been missing out. Red Thunder icons have been around for a while: http://cmmods.greenasjade.net/mods/5153/details

 

There is a set for CMFI: http://cmmods.greenasjade.net/mods/5165/details

 

and one for CMBS too: http://community.battlefront.com/topic/118057-nato-tactical-symbol-icon-replacements/

 

[slysniper]

Well, it appears to me that the testing ground is as clear as can be, no brush or anything. Pretty easy to spot and do what you are wanting. But with most terrain you are going to really play in. The hidden units will not be able to spot. Just keep that in mind

[Pak40]

It works, but what you are not understanding is that the unit with the hide command on will not spot well in many situations.

 

Thus many players find it not working because the enemy walks right up on top of them before they spot and open up from their hidden position.

 

I concur. This test is a completely unrealistic situation. Who sets up an ambush where the ambushing unit is in the middle of a field of low grass with absolutely no cover except some obviously visible foxholes? Plus the fact that the target team had TA which restricted it from firing. It's very possible that the target team spotted the foxholes and possibly the ambushing team well before it walked into the ambush.

 

If you put a wall, low bocage or even tall grass/crops right in front of that ambushing unit then they will likely never see the target until they are right on top of them.

[Sailor Malan2]

I concur. This test is a completely unrealistic situation. Who sets up an ambush where the ambushing unit is in the middle of a field of low grass with absolutely no cover except some obviously visible foxholes? Plus the fact that the target team had TA which restricted it from firing. It's very possible that the target team spotted the foxholes and possibly the ambushing team well before it walked into the ambush.

 

If you put a wall, low bocage or even tall grass/crops right in front of that ambushing unit then they will likely never see the target until they are right on top of them.

If you are well concealed, why would you hide? Just use covered arc to stop them firing at too long a range. The issue surely only arises when you need to hide the ambushers.

[BLSTK]

Wow I'm shocked.  Really I am.  I definitely have had troops who were hiding whipped out without reacting hardly at all. 

 

Ah, there's the rub. If your boys were watching out instead of whipping out they would not have been wiped out.

[A Canadian Cat]

Ah, there's the rub. If your boys were watching out instead of whipping out they would not have been wiped out.

 

LOL thanks for that - sigh. Let see if I can fix that earlier post

[Pak40]

If you are well concealed, why would you hide? Just use covered arc to stop them firing at too long a range. The issue surely only arises when you need to hide the ambushers.

 

I've got to disagree with you here. Many times I've had units with a CA (and not hiding) get spotted while behind a bocage, totally ruining any ambush chance they had.  A covered arc behind a wall doesn't work either with hiding or not hiding. If they're hiding they can't see a damn thing and if they don't hide then they get spotted before the CA is triggered usually resulting in them getting shot at the rest of the turn and not returning fire because no enemy has stepped into their CA yet.

 

It would be nice if there was a designated Ambush command that would allow the bulk of the unit hide while one or two soldiers, probably the NCOs, do the spotting. Obviously this would leave a chance that the unit could be spotted, but very reduced. A full Hide command could still be available so that all heads stay down and is almost impossible to spot, especially when concealed.

 

Another thing that is not possible is ambush by sound. In other words, a hiding unit behind a wall or hedge can't use sound of the enemy to trigger the CA. Very useful for passing tanks or vehicles as well as running infantry.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Pak40

[Lethaface]

It works, but what you are not understanding is that the unit with the hide command on will not spot well in many situations.

 

Thus many players find it not working because the enemy walks right up on top of them before they spot and open up from their hidden position.

 

I personally use this set up concept as you show, but I add one thing. I always make sure to have some overwatch that is not hidden that will engage the enemy if my hiding units do not spot them. So at the worst, the enemy enters my kill zone, overwatch opens up, stops them for the first minute. I can then unhide all my hidden units and within moments I will have all my firepower I can muster being added into the ambush.

 

What Slysniper said. I use these orders when ambushing and want to force fire on the enemy if discovered in a certain zone, no matter what. Still I have other units not hiding that are actively spotting the enemy and will unhide the rest when favorable. Staying hidden indefinitely is generally NOT favorable in ambush, covered arcs or not.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Lethaface

[Bil Hardenberger]

Another great test MOS.  

 

One way to "maybe" get around the LOS issue with hiding units is to have another unit with a very small target arc nearby that can do the spotting for them (ie. sharing spotting info), the maybe the hiding unit will be able to spot better while in dense terrain (maybe).  Perhaps worth a test.

 

By the way I almost never use hide.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Bil Hardenberger

[MOS:96B2P]

Ooh, nice tactic!

 

I think it can be depending on the circumstances.  As slysniper pointed out the Hide command can be problematic in some situations.  I was surprised to find it worked at all with the Hide command.  If you use this tactic let us know how it worked out.  I will have to do some more experimenting with it to try to determine how reliable it is in different terrain.  

 

<snip> Guys hiding in buildings don't seem to see anything outside of them.   I guess they climb in a cupboard or under the chairs or something...

 

LOL  I will have to load my MOUT map and see how this tactic works in an urban area. 

[MOS:96B2P]

Another great test MOS.  

 

One way to "maybe" get around the LOS issue with hiding units is to have another unit with a very small target arc nearby that can do the spotting for them (ie. sharing spotting info), the maybe the hiding unit will be able to spot better while in dense terrain (maybe).  Perhaps worth a test.

 

By the way I almost never use hide.

 

Thanks Bil, testing and playing around in the editor is almost as much fun as actually playing the game.  I suspect when I am done experimenting around with this tactic I will decide the best practice is to always have at least one team not hiding as the lookout / sentry / overwatch for the hiding teams.    

[MOS:96B2P]

Oh you have been missing out. Red Thunder icons have been around for a while: http://cmmods.greenasjade.net/mods/5153/details

 

 

Thanks Ian!  I have your other unit icons already.  Just for some reason I thought you hadn't done CMRT.  This is good timing.  One of my current PBEM games is in CMRT.  I will start using them ASAP.    

[Pak40]

CMx1 was more abstract with spotting and therefore setting ambushes was easier to pull off. As long as a hiding unit had decent cover, it would always spot when an enemy unit walked into it's covered arc and would react accordingly. Likewise you could choose not to set an arc to create extremely close ambushes. When enemies approached within about 30m a hiding unit would start firing usually with devastating effect.

[Lethaface]

Thanks Bil, testing and playing around in the editor is almost as much fun as actually playing the game.  I suspect when I am done experimenting around with this tactic I will decide the best practice is to always have at least one team not hiding as the lookout / sentry / overwatch for the hiding teams.    

 

If you give units on hide a covered arc I have the impression one of them comes up more often to spot and the whole squad is more eager to fire at targets within the arc without receiving fire, when compared with plain hide orders. Still hide sucks for proper spotting but is useful when you don't want to be discovered, or killed by shrapnel from near artillery impact . I have used hide a lot, but especially in CMSF when playing as the Syrians in PBEM. Haven't been able to play a lot of PBEM CMx2 WW2 situations where it was better to lay low and pop up at point blank range. At least, I keep wondering if those tactics would work but (working towards) fire superiority usually gets the favor over laying low.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Lethaface

[Vinnart]

I think it can be depending on the circumstances.  As slysniper pointed out the Hide command can be problematic in some situations.  I was surprised to find it worked at all with the Hide command.  If you use this tactic let us know how it worked out.  I will have to do some more experimenting with it to try to determine how reliable it is in different terrain.  

 

 

LOL  I will have to load my MOUT map and see how this tactic works in an urban area. 

 

This indeed works now as Sly already said. I noticed the improved behavior since 3.0 came out, and have used it to good effect since then. Before this units favored hiding over engaging in the arc. The key I think  to using target arc on its own or + hide really depends on the circumstance, and most importantly the terrain. The main draw back as already said is that the hiding unit usually will not spot as quick since not as many guys are spotting, so hiding gives a spotting handicap, but gives a concealment bonus. I use all commands including hide, and combos depending on the situation. If done right it can make the difference. I do like how it works now in that is much improved over how cmx2 used the combo in the past.

 

I do not recommend hide+target arc in buildings. The target arc alone works much better in the terrain.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Vinnart

[Rinaldi]

Another excellent experiment. Just so happens I've started a PBEM where Im defending as well. Time to put this to the test.

[slysniper]

I've got to disagree with you here. Many times I've had units with a CA (and not hiding) get spotted while behind a bocage, totally ruining any ambush chance they had.  A covered arc behind a wall doesn't work either with hiding or not hiding. If they're hiding they can't see a damn thing and if they don't hide then they get spotted before the CA is triggered usually resulting in them getting shot at the rest of the turn and not returning fire because no enemy has stepped into their CA yet.

 

It would be nice if there was a designated Ambush command that would allow the bulk of the unit hide while one or two soldiers, probably the NCOs, do the spotting. Obviously this would leave a chance that the unit could be spotted, but very reduced. A full Hide command could still be available so that all heads stay down and is almost impossible to spot, especially when concealed.

 

Another thing that is not possible is ambush by sound. In other words, a hiding unit behind a wall or hedge can't use sound of the enemy to trigger the CA. Very useful for passing tanks or vehicles as well as running infantry.

 

 

You just explained how I do it almost to a tee. I do leave all my units hidden except maybe a few two men teams, because they are less likely to be spotted.

 

If possible , leaders with binos. normally with very short arcs. When they spot the enemy in the kill zone, time to unhide the rest of the units.

 

 

I would not mind a new command that would help this situation, but really, I hardly ever have a problem creating a ambush , and when I do, its because I have been spotted. And guess what, that should happen once in awhile, because it does in RL also.