T34/85 performance

[Rokko]

Hi,

I'm playing "The Passage" atm, and I am wondering. Has anyone else noticed T34/85s showing exceedingly well against German armor? To me it seems (and I am of course speaking of anecdotal evidence here) that they have an unusual advantage in terms of spotting as well as first-hit-probabilty/accuracy. I just had 3 T-34/85s in the open wipe the floor with 3-4 PzIVHs, all unbuttoned and with target arcs on the T34s, some of them in a forrest, some hull down at a range of 1300m. Their first hits came in the first or the second shots, most of the PzIVs never even spotted them, I was so frustrated after that that I took a look the experience ratings, and the crews were only Green or Regular, my own were ranging from Regular to Crack. Admittedly, some of the T34s were also hull down, but I've made similar experiences in other scenarios as well, such as Myth of Invincibility.

Has anyone had similar occurences?

[MikeyD]

Ha! This is the opposite of most of the posts that involve T34! T-34/85 definitely outclasses the obsolescent PzIV, especially the late model with the fast turret drive that shows up in September.

T/34/85 has an extra pair of eyeballs looking downrange, I don't think PzIV has any provision for the loader doing any spotting. This is one of the big changes between initial Panther D and later Panther A, roof optics for the loader to contribute in spotting.

[Rokko]

Sure, I am not expecting PzIVs to survive very long against T34/85 for a longer period of time. But I was thinking that numbers advantage, experience advantage, overall positioning advantage, not moving in advantage, etc. would outweigh their obvious technical advantages at that range.

Also, any other complains about 34s in the other direction were AFAIR related to the 76mm variant with a 4 man crew.

[A co]

As far as accuracy is concerned, aren't big-bore, long guns like the 85mm more accurate at long range, generally, than smaller shorter guns like the Pz IV's?

[SlowLarry]

I had the complete opposite outcome in this scenario. The Pz IV long made short work out of the T34/85, at ranges exceeding 1000m. My impression from ingame is, the longer the distance the greater the german advantage. Which matches my expectations pretty well. The problem for the german tanks is that they cant simply sit out mid- to longrange duells like they can with the Shermans for example, because even long range hits from the 85L/53 are almost certainly catastrophic. This has been my experience for the Pz IV, the Stug and Jagdpanzer IV.

The spotting is probably the driving factor for your results. Spotting can sometimes be a bit weird in the game, with units not seeing what they should and others seeing what they shouldnt. I usually ragequit, then come back some time later to come up with a neat rationalization of what happened. Works for me!

May be just bad luck on your part, rerun the scenario and see if you can bag yourself some t34s this time.

[Lt Bull]

Has anyone else noticed T34/85s showing exceedingly well against German armor? To me it seems (and I am of course speaking of anecdotal evidence here) that they have an unusual advantage in terms of spotting as well as first-hit-probabilty/accuracy. I just had 3 T-34/85s in the open wipe the floor with 3-4 PzIVHs, all unbuttoned and with target arcs on the T34s, some of them in a forrest, some hull down at a range of 1300m. Their first hits came in the first or the second shots, most of the PzIVs never even spotted them, I was so frustrated after that that I took a look the experience ratings, and the crews were only Green or Regular, my own were ranging from Regular to Crack. Admittedly, some of the T34s were also hull down, but I've made similar experiences in other scenarios as well, such as Myth of Invincibility.

Has anyone had similar occurences?

I have not played too many armor on armor heavy CMRT scenarios, but the one that I did pla it was the "unusual advantage in terms of spotting as well as first-hit-probability/accuracy" of Russian over German tanks that was EXACTLY the issue I felt

I actually was going to post a thread specifically about a particular scenario "Minsk Express", which I played WEGO PBEM, where it seemed like it was the stationary, ambushing German armor that had the spotting disadvantage against the advancing Russian armor (IS2s, T34s and SU-76). So many times the stationary, unbuttoned German tanks, many in concealing terrain, waiting to spot and ambush the approaching advancing enemy armor found themselves being spotted first and ambushed by fire from an unseen tank that had advanced towards them. The funny thing was is that my opponent who had also played the same scenario from the German side against another opponent experienced the same thing going on in that PBEM as well. What I experienced in the PBEM I played really put me off CM/CMRT as I have long questioned the integrity, consistency and mechanics of the CM LOS engine.

NOTE: All this occurred in games played prior to the latest patch. I can not vouch for what might happen if played with the latest patch.

Now that this issue has been brought, I will start a thread on the scenario I played "Minsk Express" asking for others to post what they found in their games.

Thanks Rokko for starting this thread.

[Sailor Malan2]

You will find that doing a specific shooting range test will gather more objective info faster and with more accuracy than asking people for their opinions. People will tend to answer if they perceive anomalies whereas those who don't, wont. And perception is notoriously biased.If I had a £1 for each thread that claimed the game produced wrong results that then showed (via range tests) on average it produced expected ones, but with a scatter that encompassed unexpected ones, I would have enough to buy CM all over again! (Even with $20 vehicle packs )

[Sailor Malan2]

Oh, and without the need for so many spoilers

[Fizou]

I have played through fire brigade von S via pbem, my experience is that the side that moves onto an awaiting opponent is at a disadvantage, as it should be.

[Rake]

I played through The Passage and my experience was exactly the opposite. I raced the IV's into covered and partial hull down positions and picked off the T-34/85's as they popped onto view.

As stated elsewhere in thread, I kept the Pz IV's at range, where I felt their optics would be better than the Russians'. It usually took 3-4 penetrations to knock out the Soviet tanks, but they rarely seemed to have any idea where the shots were coming from. When they did return fire, trees saved several of my tanks from taking hits. IIRC, I lost two tanks and knocked out all but one T34/85.

[Ultradave]

I was the Russian playing this scenario by email and had my a$$ handed to me. I think I surrendered after about 15 minutes as most of my armor had already been picked off at long range.

Maybe it was me, but the German armor sliced and diced me.

[Dynaman216]

Played this as the Russians and the Germans and the T34s have a slight advantage. Finding hull down or hidden positions is required for both sides.

[Rokko]

Well, it seems this can go either way. I guess my biggest gripe after all these years is still the terribly inconsistent spotting in all the CM games. Who shoots first, wins. But you cannot expect your Tank A, that sits hidden in 10-15m meters deep in a forest (ofc with line of sight) with a very narrow covered arc to spot a Tank B that comes rumbling into that arc to spot first. What models or types A and B are probably doesn't matter a whole lot.

[A Canadian Cat]

I have played through fire brigade von S via pbem, my experience is that the side that moves onto an awaiting opponent is at a disadvantage, as it should be.

Yep, I agree. I am currently playing Minsk Express as the Germans. I have managed to execute two really nice ambushes and took out a lot of T34s. My opponent has done a good job of forcing enough tanks into the fight that my PzIVs and even Tigers have eventually lost out but they sure had a turkey shoot before that. Now it will come down to have I destroyed enough armour to survive or not. We will see.

All seems right with the world to me

[Amizaur]

Has anyone tested if moving tanks have any disadvantage in spotting against stationary tanks ?

Fast moving tanks IMO should have penalty for spotting at close-medium range (100-500m) and have BIG penalty for spotting at medium-long range (>500m). At long range (>1000-1500m) they really shouln't spot anything short of a Mouse, while riding fast.

IT's nearly impossible to use binoculars while riding on fast moving tank (difficult even on slow moving one). Looking trough gunner's sight is not better (some mix of ground and blue sky to see).

What is left for spotting is naked eye, and on fast moving tank is also not as good as in stationary one.

Any binoculars or optics advantage should be reduced at least by half if the tank is moving slow and disabled completly if the tank is moving fast (only naked eye spotting).

Spotting range and probability of spotting anything should be severly reduced while moving fast.

In reality tanks moved fast from one covered position to another, they could hardly spot while moving (only accidentally - some easily visible targets, not small, distant or camuflaged ones).

I wonder if this is the case in the game. Anyone knows ?

[slysniper]

Has anyone tested if moving tanks have any disadvantage in spotting against stationary tanks ?

The quick answer is yes, been tested and there is spotting factors that makes it harder for the moving tank to spot.

But I know when I did my test, which was long ago, the factors did not provide enough of a penatly.

But since then BF have adjusted those factors and it has improved as to moving tanks not spotting as well.

But I have not run any test to see what the present penalties are as to time variences compared to a non-moving tank.

But there are others that test stuff all the time, maybe someone else can tell you what you might presently expect to see.

[snarre]

moving tank get all sou penalties to accuracy , some time shot fly to scy.

[BLSTK]

Pardon? Mud is clearer.

EDIT: Upon further sifting, I believe we have this nugget:

"Moving tanks also get penalties to accuracy, sometimes shots fly to sky."

Clearly, I missed my calling.

[GhostRider3/3]

I have been playing the campaign "breaking the Spear" I think that's the name.. and I have to say my hats off for the campaign, it has been great so far. I play very cautiously as the Germans especially with Mk IV.. but they have held their own... although I have lost 2 Pz IV in the First scenario, destroying I believe 11 Russian Tanks. Second Scenario was tricky, but I managed to outfox the Russian.. destroying 13 Tanks for the loss of 1 Pz IV. I am on the 3rd Scenario now, and so far they have destroyed 1 Panther, and created casualties for two more Panthers, however they have lost 23 T-34/85's.

I think its about tactics, using smoke, and not showing your ass... looking for potential ambush points, etc, and using artillery to button up suspected areas where the enemy is hiding... sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't.

I go back to each scenario as I save them and I look at the hit decals and see why my equipment was destroyed, the 2 panthers that suffered casualties were at the time unbuttoned and both commanders injured, and one loader was injured. they were hit 2-3 times each from the front angle.... the Panther that was destroyed took a shot to the side Hull and stopped, looking at the damage, the engine was apparently most likely destroyed, no fire however, and the entire crew bailed out successfully and uninjured.

The opposite has to go for the Russian tanks and crews... many do not survive, and the 75mm/pak 48 (Pz IV)gh to cause the tanks to brew up if hit from the sides. which should be accurate as hell, the only thing the Pz IV lacks is the punching power to the front of a T-34/85 however at ranges of 1000m I have had penetrations in the front hull and side turret. Panther has no issues at 2000m of punching holes in T-34 but the T-34 so far has never penetrated the front Turret or Hull of a Panther yet.

[wadepm]

That sounds like a good one. I have searched for that name in the repository but no luck. Can you check the name next chance you get? Thanks.

[A Canadian Cat]

I thought he meant "Blunting the Spear" which ships with the game. If I am wrong hopefully he will chime in.

[MikeyD]

I think its about tactics

That's a valid point. Whenever I've tried to play the game like its a duel on main street at high noon I've got my head handed to me. You need to be 'sneaky', to pull every dirty trick in the book. This is especially true on Eastern Front where your Panther might just find itself with a big old hole entering the front and going out the back - Something you didn't really have to worry about in Normandy.

[wadepm]

Ian, that's the one I think too. Just started it. Says it is "large" but seems manageable...for now.

[GhostRider3/3]

I thought he meant "Blunting the Spear" which ships with the game. If I am wrong hopefully he will chime in.

Yes that is the one.. I have to admit the last time I was on, I had drank too much Eggnog spiked by my Fiancé.

I have to say.. "spoiler Alert" the defense is very, very good.. they can be dug in at some pretty nifty areas, and "coughs" surprisingly at advantages defilades. The Russian infantry is most courageous.. and defeat German infantry at close quarters unless you suppress the living crap out of them.

Anyways it is a fun and long Campaign.

[GhostRider3/3]

In staying on Topic.. The T-34 is vastly superior to the Sherman, its very fast if moving out and you can quickly lose site of them, if they are being used tactically, and sneaky. The main difference I have seen between the Normandy and Russian front so far is.

1, Allied tanks have to be played very well. Sherman's and T-34's are well suited for medium range engagements.. of up to 1000m but after that, even the PzIV can still kill them pretty effectively of ranges around 1500m. The only saving grace for the allies was the Bocage, but the Btits, around the Caen area.. forget about it..

Russian T-34 as far as I have seen and played can survive some good hits from the front except from Panthers. Again the Pz. IV can still penetrate the front of the T-34 but as far as I have seen, or experienced these have been within 1000m. Most of my hits on T-34 at ranges of over 1000m have been side Turret, Hull penetrations with others from around 850m penetrating the front.

2. Russian T-34/85 can kick your ass in a heart beat.. Although again the Germans will find comfort at engagements of 1000-1200m or more having an effective penetration value.

All of this I am sure you already know, and I am sure someone has already created a table. This blurb has just been from my experience with campaigns and few head to head missions, and some test missions I have created.

The T-34/85 is a very effective tank and in numbers are very lethal, however if your opponent is clever, or you have on par tank numbers, the Germans will have the advantage.. however there are always variables...

In my Opinion the Panther is probably still the best tank of WWII, but that's my opinion so don't hate me.. LOL.

The Allies in Normandy have some other very nice effective pieces.... Achilles, Hellcat, and of course the Dragonfly's. The Russian SU-122 is also a very lethal weapon and will tear you a new one.. at ranges equal to pretty much any game range your involved in.. Even tested a long range battle, open plain.. high grass with few defilades.. hard to see them.. and they can wreak havoc at 1800m and one even killed a Panther side hull at 2100m. lower side hull, but hey the Panther was even moving. Anyways love Battlefront, and there are so many versed and knowledgeable people within this community, its pretty cool.

Semper Fi, and happy Holidays.