Uncontrolled AIR in CMBN

[OrdeaL]

Thanks for the reply YD, I think ill just wait the patch out. I've played most of the scenarios and other campaigns and this is the one i was looking forward too the most. I'm not mad or anything and i'm glad you guys are fixing it thanks again!

p.s. To revert back to 2.12 would it require a re-install from scratch? Ta.

[YankeeDog]

p.s. To revert back to 2.12 would it require a re-install from scratch? Ta.

Yes, though note again you can have two (or more) versions of the game installed on the same system without problems. So you don't need to ditch your current 3.0 install, just install a 2.12 version somewhere else.

I'm in a Mac and it's very easy in OSX; you can have the two installs sitting side by side in the Applications folder and they work fine. I'm not as familiar with the details of how to have multiple installs in Windows, but I know it can be done. Maybe someone else can provide.

[sburke]

Well, if you want control of your air units, best keep a version of 2.12 on your machine.

That appears to be all that you can do

Yes, though note again you can have two (or more) versions of the game installed on the same system without problems. So you don't need to ditch your current 3.0 install, just install a 2.12 version somewhere else.

I'm in a Mac and it's very easy in OSX; you can have the two installs sitting side by side in the Applications folder and they work fine. I'm not as familiar with the details of how to have multiple installs in Windows, but I know it can be done. Maybe someone else can provide.

Not too dissimilar. Just when the game asks for install directory change the name and add something like v2 or v3 on the end. Voila!

[womble]

Or just don't delete the copy of the V2.12 install you made before you applied the upgrade. You did make a backup, didn't you?

[Doug Williams]

I am glad it has changed, I think it is much more realistic having them uncontolled.

I agree. This was a pleasant surprise.

[Doug Williams]

To review, the air support modeling in CMBN/FI v3.0 was inadvertently changed to CMRT-style "roving only" air support, over which the player has no direct control. Under this system, Air Assets simply show up randomly at some point during the battle and attack something they see, including possibly friendly units.

It was not intended make this change for CMBN/FI v3.0 and busy bees are working on the issue.

That's too bad. I like it the way it is now. Oh, well.

[OrdeaL]

Well i cant for the life of me figure why you guys would like air assets bombing anything on the map including friendlys. Wouldnt the FO say "yo! we are at this end of the road don't kill us, ta" Probably something more technical than that hah. The system that's in place now (even though this wasn't meant to make it in CMBN) is just silly! Now if the plane was uncontrolled but we gave it co-ords of where friendlys or enemys were then yes i'm all for it!

For a quick laugh try the "The Road to Nijmegen" campaign now

[c3k]

I have not tried air in CMBN v3 (err, v2.20).

However, MOST, if not ALL, of the air support used in NWE during this timeframe was totally uncoordinated with the ground commander.

In the case of big offensives, Ground and Air was coordinated during the planning phase.

Heavy bombers were given targets/boxes. The air arm would demand a safety line far away from friendly ground. Ground didn't like that. Ground knows that suppression needs to followed up on, HARD, or all the high explosive is wasted. Air knows how inaccurate "precision" heavy bombers are.

Medium bombers were given target types. Specific bridges, etc.

Fighter bombers were told "Ground should be near this river. Help 'em out if you see 'em." They'd rove around with NO comms with Ground and shoot up whatever they fancy. Usually they'd hit the enemy. Or haystacks. Or friendlies. Or they'd SAY they hit any of the above. Mostly they'd miss. But when they hit, they made a difference. For a little bit.

Swarms of uncoordinated fighters, deconflicted only by pre-planned phase lines. Ground would tell Air, "We're moving up the road to Village-Town. We'll attack at 6 a.m. Give us a hand." At 6 a.m., planes bomb Village-Town. At 6:15 roving fighters zoom about. If Ground breaks through and advanced 5 miles BEYOND Village-Town, well, Air attacks them. That's where the enemy is.

That's ignoring map-reading errors.

The modern FAC/JTAC party did not exist.

Oh "cab-rank"? Okay. ONE, that's "1", singular, solo, individual, air-liaison officer would be up with a corps level offensive. In one of the Caen attacks, the one guy got hit right at the start of the battle. Down with Patton and the oft-cited US air support, it was better, but that's not saying much. Again, one air guy in a tank with an Air radio. (Different freq's, donchaknow. Still have that issue to this day.) One guy. He can only see one thing.

The vast majority of CAS were random attacks. Air guy gets briefed in England (or Normandy forward airfield) and then flies a hundred miles or so and looks out his canopy. Smoke, dust? Little moving guys? Tanks? Hey, which way are they pointed? Hmm, I'm gonna light 'em up!! Talley-Ho! Okay, back to base. Whiskey, and chasing the Nafta girls.

There is a reason why so much time, money, and effort have been sunk into improving air-ground coordination. Trying to get the guy in a hole in the ground, crawling under fire, pelted with dirt, nose in the mud, to coordinate with a guy who woke up in a rack a hundred miles away and just whizzed by at hundreds of miles per hour, is a difficult problem.

A =lot= of Ground did not want Air anywhere near their men.

That's all on the attack.

When Ground is dug in, a LOT of the deconfliction problems solve themselves. "We are in Village-Town. The enemy is outside the town." Air shoots anything outside Village-Town. Ground is happy.

Ken

[sburke]

Well i cant for the life of me figure why you guys would like air assets bombing anything on the map including friendlys. Wouldnt the FO say "yo! we are at this end of the road don't kill us, ta" Probably something more technical than that hah. The system that's in place now (even though this wasn't meant to make it in CMBN) is just silly! Now if the plane was uncontrolled but we gave it co-ords of where friendlys or enemys were then yes i'm all for it!

For a quick laugh try the "The Road to Nijmegen" campaign now

Just read no silent night. Seems the 101st suffered quite a bit from friendly fire incidents with aircraft at Bastogne. Without the risk of friendly fire aircraft seem to out of place, too precise for WW2.

[c3k]

^^^

Hah! Crossposted with sburke.

[sburke]

^^^

Hah! Crossposted with sburke.

Lol yep

And in Bastogne they were dug in with identification panels and they still got hit. They also didn't hold it against the pilots, they needed that air support even with the risk.

[OrdeaL]

I just watched a doco with a Typhoon pilot saying they were told to hit targets marked by smoke in the Normandy campaign. I would understand it happening in Bastogne for sure..

Either way what i'm seeing in that campaign with planes strafing my whole army in column formation before contact is even made and no way to even tell them not to come is a bug imo. So if the plane didn't have contact with the FO which sounds silly to me but i'll take your word for it, wouldn't the FO team be able to call someone to relay the message to the pilot where they were or cease fire and go home etc? Right now we have NO options nill.

I realise this wasn't meant to be put into CMBN but now i just feel bad for all the CMRT players! hehe

[c3k]

Well, I'll say that what's happening in the game will get fixed. Meaning, it's broken.

That's regarding gameplay.

Your statement that "wouldn't the FO team" call off the air made me laugh. What FO team? You mean the guy with the radio which may or may not be able to raise battalion HQ? You know, the 5 guys crowded around some plank of wood in a rubbled house. And that one of them can somehow get on the radio net for THAT fighter unit?

Let's replay what happened in your example.

Cast of Characters

Column Commander: Pounder

Column FO: Redleg

Battalion Commander: Six

Fighter Pilots: Ace, Bastard, Clueless, Dago

Various extras, filling the role of the advancing troops

It starts before the sun rises...

A clean briefing room, bright lights, white-jacketed orderlies with pots of coffee and large metal trays of eggs and sausage fill the plates and mugs of the zip-suited fighter pilots. The squadron commander is about to speak.

"Ahem. Alright. First, let's talk about the mayhem last night. Are we clear that this base will not be hosting any more nurse-pilot parties? Ace? I'm speaking to you."

Ace, getting high fives from Bastard and Dago, "Yes, sir. Very sorry about that. I can promise you that it won't happen again." Then, sotto voce, "At least not with those 2 nurses."

Glaring, the commander continued, "Right. Glad that's sorted. Now, onto today's list. You'll lead your flight up here," and he slapped his swagger stick on the hanging map, "where some of our boys are trying to drive Jerry out of a village. Our boys are driving up the road. They kickoff at 0800. Any questions? Okay, out you go... Good hunting."

Ace, Bastard, Clueless and Dago walk out to their planes, with Ace pulling out a pair of nurse's knickers from his pocket and tossing it to Dago who laughs and mops his brow with it. Ace turns to Clueless and says, "You're leading second element. Monitor the airfield frequency once we're airborne. We'll use standard interplane for our formation."

15 minutes later, they're airborne, rocking their wings as they soar over the nurses' barracks.

Back at Battalion HQ, a cluster of dirty, unshaven men are standing in a rubbled house. The commander, Six, is about to speak…

“Men, Regiment has laid another one on. Pounder, you’ll be leading it.”

Pounder looks up from picking lice off his torn cuff. “Again? My troops are dead on their feet. I’ve had 4 men with trench foot just this morning. We’ve eaten the last of our K-rats and you told us that we could have hot chow tonight. The men were looking forward to a break.”

Six gives a look of apology, “Pounder, you’ve got to get this done. You’ll proceed up the road at 0800. We all know Jerry is waiting for us, but that’s the way it’s gotta be. You’ll have air support.”

Pounder lets out a groan.

Six continues, “This time it’s coordinated. Really. Corps even sent us a Forward Controller. That’s him, over there,” he says as he points at a man in the corner.

All eyes stare at the new man. Clean fatigues, fresh looking eyes. Oddly, his cheek bones aren’t sunken in. Seeing everyone staring, he stands clear of the wall and says, “I’m ‘Redleg’. Just down from Corps. Don’t worry. I’ll get air when and where you want it. Or artillery. I can do it all.”

Pounder stares, locking eyes. Redleg breaks off first. Pounder says, “If you can’t do your job, men will die.” With that, Pounder gets up and shuffles off in the gait which marks a veteran.

Six looks at Redleg and says, “You heard the man. Now get going, and good luck.”

Later, Pounder and Redleg join the column, already formed up on the road. Confusion reigns. Jerry has tossed some harassment fire and caused delays. They get going 20 minutes late. Pounder has Redleg next to him, and they stay just behind the lead platoon.

Meanwhile, 4,000 feet up and 100 miles behind them, Ace and Clueless are talking.

Ace is saying, “Clueless, we keep getting chatter on standard. Let’s go to channel 2. Fang 1 flight, push channel 2.” They answer with staccato replies….”Two”, “Three”, “Four”. Then, seconds later on channel 2, “Two’s up”, “Three’s up”, “Dago’s here to save the day!”

Ace restores discipline with a quick rebuke, “Dago. Save the chatter for the nurse when you give her back her knickers.” He continues, “The clouds are making it tough to see. I’ve counted 4 rivers. Clueless, how many have you counted?”

Clueless replies, “I’ve counted five.” Bastard chimes in, “I’m up to six.”

Ace realizes they’re close, but the constant panoply of fields, roads, streams, rivulets and small villages and towns which are running past his canopy are only visible between scattered clouds and bear little resemblance to the lines and whirls on the map folded on his thigh. “Okay,” he says, “let’s get lower.”

He leads them down to the deck. THERE! A force moving on a road! In a flash, they’ve past them. Ace pulls up in a hard turn to get a better look. The others follow.

On the road just below, Pounder and Redleg hear the roar of planes a fraction before the swift craft flit over the top of the road. Engines straining, the planes pull up and around. Redleg gives a smug smile and says, “See? I told you I’d get them here.”

The men start to clear the road. Pounder bellows, “Stay on the road! Those are ours!”

Ace, pulling 5 gees, straining his head around, sees a rich target. With a whoop and a holler, he keys the mike, “Follow me!” He lines up…a touch of rudder, eases the stick, presses the red button and eight fifty caliber machine guns rip loose with their lead slugs, chewing up the road the Germans down below. As he pulls clear, there’s only a scattering of small arms fire coming up at him. Bastard, Clueless, and Dago follow his example…

Pounder watches in horror as his men are blasted apart by the repeated impacts. Redleg gets on the radio, “Calling HQ, calling HQ, this is redleg, over!” Nothing. Frantically, he switches to air interplane standard, known as channel one: “Knock it off! Knock it off!”

A thin voice, static in the background, replies. “Authenticate yourself!”

Redleg, seeing the planes come around for another pass, screams, “I don’t have time for the codebook! Knock it off! You’re killing us!”

The thin voice comes back, “Nice try, Jerry”. Redleg doesn’t know that the voice belongs to the lead of a fighter wing 20 miles away. Since Ace switched to channel 2, no one in his formation can hear Redleg.

Ace and his flight come around and make another pass. Their training has paid off. A little rudder waggle gets the .50 cal slugs to spread across both sides of the road, hitting the men cowering in the ditches.

Redleg only has 3 radio crystals. He can’t even imagine something like a digital tuner. His last available frequency it the airfield. He calls them, “Airfield, airfield, this is Redleg, over!”

“This is airfield. Go ahead Redleg.”

Redleg nearly swoons in relief. “We’re getting strafed! Call Fang 1 Flight and tell them to knock it off!!!”

“Roger”

Meanwhile, in the air, Ace looks down at a dust filled road. Nothing is visible. He keys the mike, “Alright chaps, let’s see what else we can find”, and leads the formation further along the road. A few minutes later Clueless calls him. “Airfield is telling us to knock it off.”

Ace replies, “Knock it off? We’re not attacking anyone. We’ve got ammo and fuel. Let’s see what else is out there before we head back. Happy hour starts in a little while.”

Back on the road, Redleg looks at the carnage. Guilty, he knows he needs to apologize. He turns to Pounder and recoils in shock. Pounder’s head has been blown apart by a .50 caliber slug. This one turned out as badly as the last one…

[Hister]

God damn, you have too much free time on your hands c3k. Why don't you make an AAR instead?

[Buzz]

Do you get the ... hosting nurse-pilot parties... feature in CMBN v3 (err, v2.20).... for $10

"... MOST, if not ALL, of the air support used in NWE during this time frame was totally uncoordinated with the ground commander.....The modern FAC/JTAC party did not exist."

Nicely done Ken. I really enjoy watching Air POWER arrive "I'm gonna light 'em up!! Talley-Ho!" but the reality in much WWII was as you have described.

Modern CMSF CMBS has much better command and control but it is still possible with all the tech today to light up!! friendlies

The nurse-pilot parties... feature is in the Mac version... I hope

[Whiterider]

Aircraft behavior in 3.0 is realistic and pleasant. What more can we expect for a game? :confused:

[c3k]

Well, "realism" and "enjoyable" are often at opposite ends of the gaming spectrum as far as I'm concerned.

I do know that changing the previous cmbn/cmfi air support behavior to cmrt style was not a stated objective. I thought Steve mentioned that it will revert to the previous style.

My previous was just a satirical attempt to show what air support in 1944 would devolve into and why no one on tje ground wanted air support to be close.

Ken

[YankeeDog]

At least for combat from late July 1944 IMHO, one system is a little too far one way, the other a little to far the other. But this is a topic that has already been covered here and elsewhere.

I think the reasoning for keeping the air support model unchanged had more to do with avoiding any dramatic affect on the play balance for existing scenarios, including some of the "official" campaigns/scenarios, rather than any comparative analysis of which system was more "realistic".

[Baneman]

God damn, you have too much free time on your hands c3k. Why don't you make an AAR instead?

I'm willing to step up to the plate if needed to give him a dose of reality...

BN or RT though, I don't have FI.

[MikeyD]

any chance of making the control of air support a selectable option?

As Steve has told the Beta folks repeatedly (because we've asked repeatedly ) air support has to be either entirely FO controlled or entirely random due to the nature of the coding, which wasn't set up to allow for variations. And Steve sees close air support in WWII to be of such marginal significance tactically that its not worth dismantling the game engine and reassembling just to add a marginal feature. Did I mention the Beta folk had asked this question repeatedly?

[OrdeaL]

Hahah bravo Ken! I enjoyed that. So in the end the FO called it off still

[Holman]

Will the fix to CMBN/FI air support (setting it back to controlled as was intended) be out soon, or do we have to wait for a longer patch cycle?

[Guest]

It should be out soon.

[phil stanbridge]

Mission 3 of the Road to Nijmegen is a good example of why uncontrolled air support does not work very well for game play reasons. Regardless of whether it is deemed more realistic or not, we all need to remember this is a game and if you take some of the more important aspects out of the game then it becomes less enjoyable.

4 x Typhoons laden with rockets and AP ammunition. All four are totally uncontrolled at present and you have no way to cancel the mission. Even if you hide your units as best as possible within the alloted time you will still take casualties. I replayed that mission through dozens of times testing it, and every single time I would take casualties. More often that not, the allied aircraft would not even target the enemy forces because it took too long to find them.

[Placebo]

As Steve has told the Beta folks repeatedly (because we've asked repeatedly ) air support has to be either entirely FO controlled or entirely random due to the nature of the coding, which wasn't set up to allow for variations. And Steve sees close air support in WWII to be of such marginal significance tactically that its not worth dismantling the game engine and reassembling just to add a marginal feature. Did I mention the Beta folk had asked this question repeatedly?

Well thanks for asking anyway, you never know with s/w if a change is an easy couple of line of code or a major new dev project. I guess the answer is not to install the hotfix to keep uncontrolled air.

I will give it a try, as stated it may break too many of the current battles but as i have played most already i will see how it plays out.