Uncontrolled AIR in CMBN

[Lethaface]

I thought that the way air spotters work wasn't going to be changed for CMBN 3.0, but when I fire up a quick battle with air support they operate like in CMRT (automatic, uncontrollable). Is that correct?

[Fizou]

I thought that the way air spotters work wasn't going to be changed for CMBN 3.0, but when I fire up a quick battle with air support they operate like in CMRT (automatic, uncontrollable). Is that correct?

I also understood it wouldn't be changed.. but apparently it has been.

[womble]

Some of the people I think are beta testers don't seem to think that this should be the case...

[YankeeDog]

I'm honestly not sure what was intended here... I thought the intention was to leave Air Support in CMBN/FI unchanged, but it's possible I misunderstood, or that the powers that be changed their minds somewhere along the line... Since I'm on a Mac I was not an active part of testing the (PC only) upgrades that just got released and so I'm a little out of the loop.

I have put a query in with powers that be; hopefully someone will be along soon to offer an official comment.

[womble]

I'm honestly not sure what was intended here... I thought the intention was to leave Air Support in CMBN/FI unchanged, but it's possible I misunderstood, or that the powers that be changed their minds somewhere along the line... Since I'm on a Mac I was not an active part of testing the (PC only) upgrades that just got released and so I'm a little out of the loop.

I have put a query in with powers that be; hopefully someone will be along soon to offer an official comment.

Thanks for raising this and letting us know, YankeeDog.

[Placebo]

I am glad it has changed, I think it is much more realistic having them uncontolled.

[Whiterider]

I am glad it has changed, I think it is much more realistic having them uncontolled.

That´s true. From now on you´ll always find unexpected surprises. I like it!

Yesterday I lost a recon platoon: they were killed by my own planes.

PS:Fortunatelly it´s not common if your units are under cover.

[womble]

I am glad it has changed, I think it is much more realistic having them uncontolled.

While the options on the NWE before the 2.2 upgrade were perhaps a little too controlled, the Allies at least did have on-call air that could be assigned targets post-DDay. The Russians did not. And the Germans just didn't have air superiority, so shouldn't have any TacAir options at all.

Given the discussion before the upgrade, the expectation was that the situation wouldn't change, particularly because foisting uncontrolled air power on the Allies would thoroughly screw existing campaign scenarios. Hopefully YD will be able to cause some light to be shed.

[YankeeDog]

While the options on the NWE before the 2.2 upgrade were perhaps a little too controlled, the Allies at least did have on-call air that could be assigned targets post-DDay. The Russians did not. And the Germans just didn't have air superiority, so shouldn't have any TacAir options at all.

While doing research during the CMRT Beta phase, I was surprised to find this wasn't really true. By Mid-1944, the Soviets did have on-call CAS similar to the U.S. ACC/Brit CABRANK systems, and they utilized it during Bagration. The most convincing proof of this comes from an incident where the Germans captured a Soviet FAC vehicle that gave them enough information to reverse engineer how the Soviet CAS system worked. By the Germans' own intel assessment, the Soviet CAS was as good or better than their own (in doctrine and organization; practically speaking, the Soviet system was superior by this point because the Soviets had air superiority, good logistics and plenty of ground attack planes, while the Germans had none of these).

Even so, the Soviet CAS system was only used with the vanguard armored spearheads during Bagration -- fundamentally, it was a substitute for artillery with formations that were moving too fast for big guns to keep up. In pretty much all other situations, the Soviets favored guns, mortars and katyushas for fire support close to the line of contact, and the Sturmoviks stuck to much the more typical Tac Air interdiction missions deeper into enemy-held territory.

Hard to estimate, but my SWAG is that across the entire Bagration operation, there were probably something like a half dozen Soviet FACs who had the resources and authorization be able to call in quick response, on-call CAS missions.

This actually compares pretty favorably with the US/Brit systems. In fact, if anything, the Soviets were a bit ahead of the Western Allies. ACC and CABRANK didn't really get going until late in the Normandy campaign -- around the time of COBRA -- and it took a while for the systems to really get working. Prior to this, Western Tac Air was a pretty haphazard affair, and not really connected with low-level ground tactical action at all.

One thing to remember here is that, except for a few pilots who had experience in North Africa or Italy, prior to June 6, 1644 Allied fighter pilots had been flying over a Europe that was entirely controlled by Germany, so they had no experience dealing with friendly ground forces close to a target. In contrast, by mid-1944, Soviet pilots had been flying over an active ground front for three years, so they had plenty of opportunity to learn from their mistakes. Practice makes perfect.

So what does this all mean with regards to Air Support in CMBN/FI/RT? Which system is more "realistic" -- the new CMRT system or the old CMBN/FI system? I dunno... As I and others have said repeatedly elsewhere, the most realistic Air Support option for any of the games is NONE; on either front, it was just so rare for a Company even Battalion-level commander to have direct, quick response control over Air Assets that if you're looking for realistic WWII ground tactics, you should probably just avoid Air Support entirely.

For a "more fun and yet not totally unrealistic" option, as I have commented elsewhere, in an ideal world, at least for the Allies from Mid-1944 on, I'd like to see a system implemented where the player could exert some LIMITED targeting control over Air Assets during Setup phase ONLY. I have no idea whether a system like this is something that BFC is interested in taking the time to implement someday... I don't see it as a particularly high priority myself because there's lots of other game features/improvements I'm more interested in.

Sorry I still can't comment on what's going on with the v3.0 CMBN/FI Air Support changes yet. High command is aware.

Cheers,

YD

[Placebo]

Very interesting YD, I think the CMRT system "gets the job done" in the a user friendly way.

It just never seemed right to me that a FO can call in an airstrike at a grid ref that he must be able to see (works for arty but no laying up rounds for airstrikes) and can pinpoint an area 4m x4m (I know the plane may attack outside that) but it is still way too precise.

[slysniper]

Well, if you want control of your air units, best keep a version of 2.12 on your machine.

That appears to be all that you can do

[BigDog944]

Well, if you want control of your air units, best keep a version of 2.12 on your machine.

That appears to be all that you can do

Come on. BFC care about their customers, don't they? Surely another option is to wait for BFC to 'fix or somefink'.

[Migo441]

I don't want to whine about the patch or its cost. I was happy to pay for the 2.0 upgrade and I'm happy to pay for the 3.0 upgrade; I think they are good values.

I DO want to whine (a bit) about the air support angle. There's no reference to any change in CMBN air support in the 3.0 upgrade announcement and, as far as I'm aware, still no announcement from Battlefront if anything with air support was changed.

However, I've seen the various posts and just started a CMBN scenario with air support so the writing is on the wall. Ironically, I'm no big fan of air support and don't consider it a big loss if it turns out that it won't be FO-directed on the West Front either. But it matters due to the number of older scenarios which include air support and the effect on play balancing and so forth.

Would be nice to hear something official whether the change was deliberate or not and if it's here to stay.

[MikeyD]

Uhhh.... Steve had said categorically that CMBN would not go the uncontrolled air route. This does not sound right. There may have been limitations to WHO gets to call in what. FOs should no longer be able to call in multiple artillery missions at the same time, for instance. I can't get to the game right now, can someone check to see if its a question of who can direct air strikes and not whether air strikes can be directed at all?

[Edit] - Back again. Apparently this is not a new feature but a new bug and 'corrective action is being taken' - to use their own phrase. Dang, its always something. Murphy's law in action, I guess.

[permanent666]

- Back again. Apparently this is not a new feature but a new bug and 'corrective action is being taken' - to use their own phrase. Dang, its always something. Murphy's law in action, I guess.

This means I have to buy and download 3.0 before it gets patched!

If I could decide I would choose the CMRT way of air support with the ability of the spotter to tell the planes to fly home or give them specific targets with less delay.

Maybe bf could just increase the maximum attack radius for air support.

With the new limitation of one target mission per spotter and the long delays plus the small radius air support is not very useful any more. Especially if there is only one forward observer (like in the market garden campaign) and you have to choose between the heavy arti and air support.

[YankeeDog]

TEspecially if there is only one forward observer (like in the market garden campaign) and you have to choose between the heavy arti and air support.

This is where pre-planned (setup turn) missions and the new SHIFT+CLICK to plot multiple support assets onto one target are your friend...

[permanent666]

Are pre-planned missions not affected by the new game mechanic?

[A Canadian Cat]

Especially if there is only one forward observer (like in the market garden campaign) and you have to choose between the heavy arti and air support.

It is not as bad as you might think. Once the call for artillery has reached FFE then your FO is free to make another call. They do not have to wait until the mission is over.

[womble]

Are pre-planned missions not affected by the new game mechanic?

Well, they shouldn't be, since the FO in that case is more an administrative convenience so the player has access to the support modules: the FO doesn't actually have anything to do once the call has been made.

Good point about existing MG scenarios. The second XXXcorps scenario in Road to Nijmegen is going to be a lot more difficult to use all your support assets, and I for one needed to spray my air support missions around at targets spotted after I'd moved out. I know there were CAS assets in some of the scenarios in that campaign which had long enough lead times that if the FO did nothing but direct the JABOs one after the other, the last mission would arrive so near the end of the scenario that it would be near useless.

There are probably ways to cope by using non-FOs for non-air assets, but it looks like it changes the balance of the scenarios.

[Placebo]

Uhhh.... Steve had said categorically that CMBN would not go the uncontrolled air route. This does not sound right. There may have been limitations to WHO gets to call in what. FOs should no longer be able to call in multiple artillery missions at the same time, for instance. I can't get to the game right now, can someone check to see if its a question of who can direct air strikes and not whether air strikes can be directed at all?

[Edit] - Back again. Apparently this is not a new feature but a new bug and 'corrective action is being taken' - to use their own phrase. Dang, its always something. Murphy's law in action, I guess.

Steve/MikeyD, any chance of making the control of air support a selectable option so people can choose which option, as both sets of code are already written?

[YankeeDog]

Are pre-planned missions not affected by the new game mechanic?

Correct; during setup phase a single spotter can call in as many missions as you have artillery modules; the one-mission-per-spotter restriction only applies after you hit the GO button for the first time. And again, due to the new SHIFT+CLICK multi-battery functionality, a single spotter can also call in multiple modules simultaneously during regular gameplay, but they have to all be directed at the same target.

Since Air Support cannot be controlled in CMRT, there's no way for me to confirm absolutely for sure that this will also apply to CMBN/FI v3.0 player-controlled Air Support (once it's fixed and put back the way it was), but I'm fairly sure it will.

[OrdeaL]

Guys, i started the "The Road to Nijmegen" campaign and i'm on the 3rd mission. Within minutes of starting i have Allied thunderbolts strafing my own columns of units, some who haven't even left the deployment zone.. and my FO can't give orders to them or stop them.. Is this a bug or a new feature with 3.0? And what should i do, any help is welcomed.

Cheers

[Sequoia]

It's a bug in the 3.0 update. See post #14

[OrdeaL]

Oh thanks must of skimmed through that post. Ok so back on the shelf till a hotfix i guess..

[YankeeDog]

To review, the air support modeling in CMBN/FI v3.0 was inadvertently changed to CMRT-style "roving only" air support, over which the player has no direct control. Under this system, Air Assets simply show up randomly at some point during the battle and attack something they see, including possibly friendly units.

It was not intended make this change for CMBN/FI v3.0 and busy bees are working on the issue.

I suggest either playing some other battles that don't involve air support for now, or playing any battles involving air support under 2.12 until the fix is released. The Road to Nijmagen campaign in particular has several scenarios that feature Air Support prominently. These battles are play balanced with the assumption that the player can directly control the Air Support and will be *much* harder under the current v3.0 CMRT-style modeling.

Since save games between v2.12 and v3.0 are compatible as long as they are saved in the orders phase, you should be able to restart just battle #3 in RtM in 2.12; I don't think you'll have to restart the campaign entirely. No guarantees but my guess is this will work.

Note that the game licensing will also let you have a v2.12 and v3.0 install on your system simultaneously, so you could even shuttle back and forth between the two game versions if you really wanted to.