3.0 Released!

[waclaw]

So your argument is that since CMBN Upgrade 3.0 released in 2014 is *EXACTLY* the same as v1.0 released in 2011, you should not have to pay anything extra? Well, that is true. To use the v1.0 version you purchased 3 years ago you do not have to pay a thing. To use the version of the game you DID NOT purchase in 2011, there is a small charge for the extra features and continued support.

We are... it's an Upgrade. Patches are things that fix or make small tweaks to existing features. Upgrades are things that add new functionality or significantly change basic behavior. It is standard software terminology that has been used for about 20+ years.

You are rewarded for your loyalty by us providing a very inexpensive way to keep up with improvements. Specifically, we do not require you to repurchase the whole game ($55) or have your investment die of old age. These are the two standard behaviors in the games industry, but not for other applications such as Word, PhotoShop, OSes, etc. Those products all sell Upgrades at a discount to loyal customers, just like we do.

Steve

both write the same thing, because the situation repeats itself - of course accepts your explanation, but I disagree with them - for me, it is payable patch - a small content of which "cut out" of CMRT and sell again. Let there be no misunderstanding, I appreciate your work and effort to adjust the "content" to CMBN

when I first heard about the "UPGRADE 3.0" I hope it will bring a lot of changes - unfortunately most of the content should be issued as a patch - fix bugs game (Ground units are now able to fire at attacking aircraft - ROF), or are not very significant (hit impacts, camera controls, improved editor, water animations)

for CMBN, CMFI and CMRT spent $ 280 (probably will be new modules) - this is really a lot of money - and these minor fixes should be released as a patch, as a reward for this financial effort - should take care of us, as we take care of you .

of course, do not expect anything, I'm not naive, this is just my opinion;)

[Vanir Ausf B]

- fix bugs game (Ground units are now able to fire at attacking aircraft - ROF),

That was not a bug.

[sburke]

when I first heard about the "UPGRADE 3.0" I hope it will bring a lot of changes - unfortunately most of the content should be issued as a patch - fix bugs game (Ground units are now able to fire at attacking aircraft - ROF), or are not very significant (hit impacts, camera controls, improved editor, water animations)

This is where I would disagree with MikeyD, THE game changing addition is triggers in the AI in the editor. That capability alone is worth the $10 and I dare any player who doesn't play solely hth to say otherwise. If you don't think that is a huge change I have no idea what you are doing playing this game.

And Vanir is exactly right, AA fire was not a bug fix, it was a feature add. If you can't tell the difference I politely suggest maybe you should reconsider posting on the subject of the upgrade.

[waclaw]

This is where I would disagree with MikeyD, THE game changing addition is triggers in the AI in the editor. That capability alone is worth the $10 and I dare any player who doesn't play solely hth to say otherwise. If you don't think that is a huge change I have no idea what you are doing playing this game.

And Vanir is exactly right, AA fire was not a bug fix, it was a feature add. If you can't tell the difference I politely suggest maybe you should reconsider posting on the subject of the upgrade.

the game does not have a separate sound for DT and maksim - mosin and SVT 40 also has only one sound, if they add a separate sound would fix the game or will add a "new" content?

for me it is semantics, patches also fix the game by introducing new content. I repeat again, only CMBN cost me $ 135 - from my point of view I already paid for these small improvements cut from CMRT (which also bought) - I'm not a communist, I do not want anything for free - but if you already spent a lot of money (and will continue to support brand) these minor amendments should be included in the cost of the game - both sides they give something of yourself, get a unique product for which we pay a lot of money.

[sburke]

the game does not have a separate sound for DT and maksim - mosin and SVT 40 also has only one sound, if they add a separate sound would fix the game or will add a "new" content?

It would be new content. It is not a bug. No offense but bug is a very specific word in software. That you don't like the fact they don't have distinct sounds doesn't make it a bug. What would make it a bug is if it is supposed to and wasn't working. My understanding (and I could be out of date on this) is the decision about sounds has more to do with performance. It is a trade off in design, that means no it is not a bug.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_bug

This isn't semantics. Definitions are very important in defining the terms of a conversation so both parties know they are discussing the same thing. Obviously for you this is an item that you would like them to address. For others it is likely less so especially if it comes with a hit in performance. If you carry the thought through, there are a LOT of sound adjustments they could make. Engine noises individually by vehicle type for example. I am sure there are folks that would like more distinctive sounds. As those start adding up, the performance hit grows. Where do you draw the line?

[Mord]

How about they just don't upgrade CMBN or CMFI with anything from here on out? There ya go...you saved ten bucks! Your world would then be at peace again. Hopefully, the pessimism and misery that's been displayed on here over the last two days won't dictate the future for the rest of us. It'd be a sad day in hell if some of you guys influenced BFC into stopping these upgrades. And the sick thing is, some of you'd be happy about it.

Cheap *** ****** ******* PERIOD.

Mord.

[waclaw]

It would be new content. It is not a bug. No offense but bug is a very specific word in software. That you don't like the fact they don't have distinct sounds doesn't make it a bug. What would make it a bug is if it is supposed to and wasn't working. My understanding (and I could be out of date on this) is the decision about sounds has more to do with performance. It is a trade off in design, that means no it is not a bug.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_bug

This isn't semantics. Definitions are very important in defining the terms of a conversation so both parties know they are discussing the same thing. Obviously for you this is an item that you would like them to address. For others it is likely less so especially if it comes with a hit in performance. If you carry the thought through, there are a LOT of sound adjustments they could make. Engine noises individually by vehicle type for example. I am sure there are folks that would like more distinctive sounds. As those start adding up, the performance hit grows. Where do you draw the line?

Here there is no regulation (eg. in patches BF add new textures, improved the fog, improved shaders - that is not repaired errors, this is a new content) for me is the fact that two different guns have the same sound is an error / bug (if Hetzer use the model of a tiger would be all right?) - often, it is impossible to fix game bugs without adding new content!

Mord

I did not save my 10$, because I've spent nearly 300$ you know what I mean?

[womble]

for me it is semantics...

Proper use of terminology is not semantics.

...patches also fix the game by introducing new content...

Sorry, but your second language skills are failing you here. Patches fix the bits of the game that are broken by changing the underlying coding or parameters. They also, sometimes, for free and gratis, improve the game by adding new features.

Broken things can be fixed. That is the primary purpose of patches.

Things that are not broken (they are that way because of design decisions) can be improved. That is the primary purpose of upgrades. Sometimes you might consider a product to be unfit for purpose because of those design decisions (Windows Phone OS not permitting an external keyboard interface), but that in itself doesn't make it broken, and so won't be fixed in a patch.

I repeat again, only CMBN cost me $ 135 - from my point of view I already paid for these small improvements cut from CMRT (which also bought)...

Then I'm afraid your point of view is objectively mistaken. It's always been perfectly clear that you get what you pay for. The improvements beyond bugfixes that have been included in previous patches were gravy. The fact that the improvements have been worked into the RT version of the engine doesn't mean they take no work to put into BN/FI.

Now, you could consider that the architectural choices that have been made in the very early days of CMx2 seem to be making it very difficult to keep the engines in step, but even if there were one common engine, as Steve has said, work needs also to be done on every single model to accommodate tank riders for example (and they can't just copy-paste all the equipment because it's not all common to both titles). While that particular piece of work wasn't done, Ammo dumps and AA-behaviour of AA guns are two obvious bits that couldn't just carry across, and I'm sure there are others that you nor I know about.

I'm not a communist, I do not want anything for free...

Thing is, you obviously do. You either think that your one-off purchase should cover all improvements for ever (not a financially viable model unless the total of improvements over all time is very small or zero), which it never claimed to, and you've been around long enough to know that, or you want the improvements of v3 ported for free into the old version of the game.

both sides they give something of yourself, get a unique product for which we pay a lot of money.

You do realise that BFC are a commercial concern? They pay peoples' wages and provide livelihoods? That there's a limit on what they can provide for free? Any decent company will fix broken things without additional cost, and BFC largely do that.

Two of the things you list as bugs simply aren't. Most of the ones that you consider "insignificant" might be so to you, but they surely aren't to everyone. Of those four, I consider two to be very significant indeed, and depending on what you include in "improved editor", potentially paradigm-shifting.

I have my own set of issues with the way BFC are going, but your carping is, in this case, pretty much entirely unfounded in anything except self-inflated expectations of what you bought when you got the game. If you don't think it's worth the money, don't buy it. Any human opponent has probably still got a copy of their 2.12 install if they're prepared to play with the old version of the software.

[Macisle]

Well said, womble.

Waclaw, your argument is relying on value judgments and semantic interpretations that are so subjective as be veering into the irrational.

[JonS]

The fact that the improvements have been worked into the RT version of the engine doesn't mean they take no work to put into BN/FI.

Or, to put that a slightly different way: CMRT benefited from all the development and fixes that has gone into CMBN-CW-MG and CMFI-GL. Does that mean, then, that - having already paid for CMBN-CW-MG and CMFI-GL - CMRT should basically be free?

(hint: the answer is 'no')

[Fizou]

Thanks for the official word on tank riders for BN/FI Steve. Happy that they still might make it in at a later point.

[A Canadian Cat]

for me it is semantics, patches also fix the game by introducing new content. I repeat again, only CMBN cost me $ 135 - from my point of view I already paid for these small improvements cut from CMRT (which also bought

Ah, here is the problem: no you did not already pay for it:

You bought CMBN with the 2.12 features and patches

You bought CMRT with the 1.0 features (plus future patches)

You have *not* bought the work to bring the engine improvements from CMRT to CMBN.

*That* is what the $10 upgrade is for. It is for you (us) to pay for the work it takes to move the code changes from one family of the game to another.

So, I do not have inside knowledge of how BFC operates but I do have software development experience and typically when you release a product you lock its code down so you don't mess it up for patches while you work on additional features on another branch. You do that feature work on a separate branch that will become a future release. In the case of these games things are even more separated (tones of stuff in CMRT is not at all part of CMBN and visa versa). So, once they are done the work on the CMRT code base they then need to take the different pieces of code done for feature work and apply them to CMBN. While it is true that work is easier than doing the work in the first place it is so far from free. OMG frankly it is a pain in the - you know. I personally hate doing it. You would need to pay me to do it. Oh wait that's what we are talking about

- I'm not a communist, I do not want anything for free

Well I would never accuse you of being a communist but it *does* sound like you want something for free.

[A Canadian Cat]

How about they just don't upgrade CMBN or CMFI with anything from here on out?

This is the part I really do not get at all: why is anyone arguing upgrades are a bad thing? In spite of issues of not getting "everything" or is it a fix or new content or is $10 to much or to little. Who cares? The alternative as you have outlined above would suck way worse than anything else.

[A Canadian Cat]

Ah, here is the problem: no you did not already pay for it

Oops, that's what I get for responding before I finish ready all the posts on the next page...

Thanks @womble for your already perfectly good explanation.

[A Canadian Cat]

Or, to put that a slightly different way: CMRT benefited from all the development and fixes that has gone into CMBN-CW-MG and CMFI-GL. Does that mean, then, that - having already paid for CMBN-CW-MG and CMFI-GL - CMRT should basically be free?

Oh I like your logic - hey how come no one has said that before? I think you should start a new thread @JonS

[womble]

I think that part of the problem, which has been alluded to here and there, is that some of the patches (to v1 CMBN particularly, and to v1 FI once BNv2 came out with its incremental improvements) included quite a number of improvements for no cost. So what the user base is now, is spolied.

[Childress]

So, summing up:

1- Was the 3.0 upgrade as significant as the 2.0 upgrade? No

2- Is it worth it? Yes

3- Was the absence of flamethrowers regrettable? Not really. The code is in and these units will really come into their own when they can actually torch stuff.

4- How was the implementation of tank riders in CMRT? They nailed it.

5- What was the impact of that feature on that game? Significant.

6- Does BF rationale for not including them 'now' make sense? Yes. From a labor point of view.

7- Could BF have softened the blow with some kind of pre-announcement? Perhaps.

8- What is the most significant addition of 3.0? AI triggers.

[Mord]

Yes. From an overall game stand point, the most significant addition, the one that gives much bang for the buck, and will completely change scenario making and game play from here on out are AI triggers. But since I bought CMBN way back before they even told us there'd be upgrades, I am entitled to the AI triggers for free...along with anything else they decide to put in the games, from now until eternity.

Mord.

[Frankster65]

But since I bought CMBN way back before they even told us there'd be upgrades, I am entitled to the AI triggers for free...along with anything else they decide to put in the games, from now until eternity.

Mord.

Damn right! I'm the customer and I'm always right...even if I'm so gosh awful wrong!

[Sequoia]

IIRC Battlefront was pleasantly surprised at the number of people who purchased 2.0 well before Market-Garden came out. It was better than projected.

[waclaw]

Womble

I perfectly know this argument (it is the third discussion in the "cost" and patches)

and of course, formally everything is correct, but from my perspective is not.

1 This is not just a question of money, I buy regularly all modules and games in the series - although often I know that there will not play! - I support my favorite series - in my national forum, many think the same - we will treat CM as a dying species that should be special treatment. (This upgrade is treated very badly)

2 in order to have a complete game (CMBN), which is the closest to CMBO content you need to spend $ 135 - this is a lot of money - from my point of view, such a regular customer that seems such a large amount to be awarded a discount on any amendments / improvements - so we do in my company, regular customers get discounts, or "free" merchandise.

as I said before, I am associated with the series, I support it (although I know I do not have time to play) spending a lot of money - unfortunately I do not feel it would be appreciated - or rather discourages me to the series.

[Frankster65]

Did you perhaps think that BF maybe cannot afford to give discounts? Or maybe the $10 per upgrade for CMBN and CMFI already includes the discounts they can afford to give?

[c3k]

So, summing up:

1- Was the 3.0 upgrade as significant as the 2.0 upgrade? No

2- Is it worth it? Yes

3- Was the absence of flamethrowers regrettable? Not really. The code is in and these units will really come into their own when they can actually torch stuff.

4- How was the implementation of tank riders in CMRT? They nailed it.

5- What was the impact of that feature on that game? Significant.

6- Does BF rationale for not including them 'now' make sense? Yes. From a labor point of view.

7- Could BF have softened the blow with some kind of pre-announcement? Perhaps.

8- What is the most significant addition of 3.0? AI triggers.

Nice summation.

[Fizou]

Nice summation.

+1 I think that sums it up pretty good

[Barkhorn1x]

So, summing up:

1- Was the 3.0 upgrade as significant as the 2.0 upgrade? No

2- Is it worth it? Yes

3- Was the absence of flamethrowers regrettable? Not really. The code is in and these units will really come into their own when they can actually torch stuff.

4- How was the implementation of tank riders in CMRT? They nailed it.

5- What was the impact of that feature on that game? Significant.

6- Does BF rationale for not including them 'now' make sense? Yes. From a labor point of view.

7- Could BF have softened the blow with some kind of pre-announcement? Perhaps.

8- What is the most significant addition of 3.0? AI triggers.

Yes, nice summation.

That stated - 10 pages to rebut a few guys who think $10.00 is a material investment? C'mon. Get real. It's $10 bucks. You don't want to part w/ $10 bucks then feel free to enjoy version 2.0 and stop acting like you are being taken advantage of.