Mother F***ing Flyboys

[db_zero]

Playing a MG scenario against the AI thank god. Used a FO to call in a Spitfire strafing run. The first run missed the target.

The second pass hoses my paras running near the target.

I may have to change procedure and always use the point targeting for airstrikes.

[Lille Fiskerby]

I have also seen that, now I only use area target if the area is very far away from my own troops, 1 km. or so.

LF.

[Placebo]

There is hardly an air support mission that goes by without me taking friendly fire!!! So frustrating but realistic. The problem is the delay, quite often the battle has moved on from when i called in the strike 10+mins ago, and i do not want to cancel it as they can be so devestating on the enemy.

Maybe if i had to write to the pixeltroopen wives and mothers that their boy was killed by friendly fire I would be more carefull!!

[c3k]

Nah. That's just the price they pay for being pedestrians.

Or, don't let your men move around before an airstrike. Keep them in cover/concealment. The airstrike will hit what it can spot.

Bigger safety zones and "freeze" your forces. It won't eliminate the chances of friendly fire, but it should lower the chances of it happening.

[womble]

Can you "adjust" airstrikes, like you can artillery missions? If you can, that might sometimes help mitigate the "battle moving on" problem of getting "danger-close" to the target area, by letting you move the target area.

[Buzz]

I think it was AKD who aptly noted WWII aircraft are really bad at spotting targets. Using area target is a good way for friendlies aka "pedestrians" to get hosed. Use point target and if the weather, trees or smoke does not obscure your fighter results should be better.

Boola-Boola

[altipueri]

German jokes:

If you can see silver aircraft the're American;

If you can see khaki planes they're British;

If you can't see any planes then they're German.

version 2:

If British planes appear, we duck;

If American planes appear, everybody ducks;

If the Luftwaffe appears, nobody ducks.

[BLSTK]

Then there's Peking duck.

No peeking.

[db_zero]

In North Africa P-38's earned a reputation as efficient and deadly killers of American troops who got bombed and strafed by accidence. Wasn't long before troops just shot at anything in the air, so material was put out to aid recognition of aircraft and the acronym WEFT or Wings, Engine, Fuselage, Tail was created to assist in what to look for.

Wasn't long before troops just changed it to Wrong Every F***ing Time.

[Seedorf81]

Yesterday: "Dutch f-16 pilot mistakes ground observation tower for target and strafes it. Miraculously none of the personnel in the tower was hit".

No joke, this is real! A well-trained pilot in a modern plane with high tech target-acquisition equipment in peacetime circumstances hits the one thing on this trainings ground (Vliehors, Vlieland) that he shouldn't.

(A few years earlier a Danish pilot dropped a bomb on the same tower. Killing at least one occupant.)

[YankeeDog]

I generally view 400m as the *minimum* separation between friendly units and an "Area" CAS target zone, and more is definitely better. Only in extremis will I put friendlies closer than this to the Area Target zone.

IME, you can get friendlies closer to CAS "Point" targets without risk -- CAS point target missions seem to be more likely to simply fail to attack entirely rather than actually divert from the target point and attack friendlies. But even with point targets, I still don't trust the flyboys and keep as much distance as I can.

90% of the time, I plot my CAS as point target, pre-planned and simply have it bomb and/or strafe areas of cover that I think are likely to contain enemy units, or are particularly desirable terrain features that I want to seize early in the fight (nothing paves the way for your ground forces like a salvo of 5 inch rockets...). The remaining 10% of the time, I'm usually directly targeting an enemy vehicle or position that my FO can see. IME, "Target Vehicle" CAS requests rarely go wrong as long as the FO is able to maintain good LOS to the target.

[Michael Emrys]

Yesterday: "Dutch f-16 pilot mistakes ground observation tower for target and strafes it.

It can happen and sometimes it is the fault of the guys on the ground. About a decade ago in Afghanistan an FO on the ground requested a strike on a target that was giving the ground forces trouble. He had this dandy laser range finder/GPS calculator, so after doing the thing he sent the coordinates to the circling F-16 which promptly dropped a 2,000 lb JDAM. The only problem was that in the heat of action, the FO had mistakenly sent his own coordinates. The only good news was that it would never be possible for him to make that mistake again.

High tech is wonderful. "To err is human, but to really screw up you need a computer."

Michael

[db_zero]

The upside is it's a Spitfire strafing my troops. Had it been something else armed with 500/1000 pound bombs or a broadside of rockets the damage could be far worse. I haven't played out the next turn yet so I'll see if he wheels around and does another strafing pass on my troops. I put the area target circle dead center on a small farm with a couple of buildings.

Guess next time I'll stick to using the point fire. I may up ending suffering more losses from friendly fire than I do from the Germans. Well live and learn and better against the AI than another opponent.

[Redwolf]

There is hardly an air support mission that goes by without me taking friendly fire!!! So frustrating but realistic.

Really?

We all know friendly fire from fighter aircraft happened often on an absolute scale. How do you know it happened often on a relative scale, as in number of close air support missions in relation to those which hit friendlies?

If the ratio was about what it is in CMx2, would they have continued giving CAS at all?

[c3k]

GOODWOOD was a decent example of how bad air support could be. It was marginally effective, overall. On a relative scale, based on the effort, it was horrible. The safety margin was measured in thousands of yards. Infantry had to relinquish hard-won gains to create the buffer needed for safety. It took DAYS of conferences to coordinate. I forget how many friendly casaulties were inflicted. (Back then, that was recognized as a price to pay. Not needlessly, but war is bloody.)

Next was COBRA. Total screwup. Really. Day 1 was the aborted attack. Only a bunch of bombers didn't get the word. Their attack, crosswise to the "box" was a surprise to the ground forces. They'd expected a run parallel to the front. This after WEEKS of coordination. The re-huddled, and re-launched the next day. Again, crosswise to the "box". Of course, now at least some in the ground forces knew this would happen. Both days, lots of shorts. Hundreds of friendly casualties.

That was pre-planned, with navigation to fixed targets identified on recon photos, in daylight, with good visibility. (At least at start.) And still, hundreds of friendlies were killed or wounded.

WWII CAS was fraught with danger for everyone involved.

(Modern CAS has a LOT of improvements, but screaming in at 600 knots doesn't leave a lot time to visually acquire anything. And the USAF brass hates the A-10. Go figure.)

Ken

[Redwolf]

GOODWOOD was a decent example of how bad air support could be. It was marginally effective, overall. On a relative scale, based on the effort, it was horrible. The safety margin was measured in thousands of yards. Infantry had to relinquish hard-won gains to create the buffer needed for safety. It took DAYS of conferences to coordinate. I forget how many friendly casaulties were inflicted. (Back then, that was recognized as a price to pay. Not needlessly, but war is bloody.)

Next was COBRA. Total screwup. Really. Day 1 was the aborted attack. Only a bunch of bombers didn't get the word. Their attack, crosswise to the "box" was a surprise to the ground forces. They'd expected a run parallel to the front. This after WEEKS of coordination. The re-huddled, and re-launched the next day. Again, crosswise to the "box". Of course, now at least some in the ground forces knew this would happen. Both days, lots of shorts. Hundreds of friendly casualties.

That was pre-planned, with navigation to fixed targets identified on recon photos, in daylight, with good visibility. (At least at start.) And still, hundreds of friendlies were killed or wounded.

WWII CAS was fraught with danger for everyone involved.

(Modern CAS has a LOT of improvements, but screaming in at 600 knots doesn't leave a lot time to visually acquire anything. And the USAF brass hates the A-10. Go figure.)

Ken

These heavy bomber attacks were not CAS. Ridiculous comparison.

[Jim1954]

Played 1 battle with Air Support so far, but it was in Italy. Bear Claws. P-40 was my most accurate and effective weapon. Go figure. Maybe they forgot how to aim after January 1944? Or newer pilots with less training?

[Vergeltungswaffe]

They weren't hitting targets behind enemy lines, they were hitting the front lines to enable a penetration. I think that meets the definition of CAS and isn't ridiculous in the least.

[Redwolf]

They weren't hitting targets behind enemy lines, they were hitting the front lines to enable a penetration. I think that meets the definition of CAS and isn't ridiculous in the least.

CM doesn't model that kind of preplanned attack by bombers. That's why bringing it up here is ridiculous.

And the Allies stopped that kind of fire support. They didn't stop fighter CAS support. So I guess the ratio was a bit better.

[c3k]

These heavy bomber attacks were not CAS. Ridiculous comparison.

A bit of perspective might serve you well.

It was preplanned CAS, by the definitions in use at the time. They were not all heavy bombers. They also had medium bombers, dive bombers, fighter bombers, and strafing.

But I am willing to hear what you have to say on the subject.

Ken

[Hessian deserter]

I believe it was the MFFB's that ended WW2 at a place called Hiroshima and Nagasaki and undoubtedly saved the lives of many Grunts and Jarheads because they did not have to invade Japan!

"Wer'e not the Army

The Backpackin Army"

"We're not the Navy

The Deck swabbin Navy"

"Were not the Marine Corp's

The Dumb,Dumb Marine Corp's"

"We are the Air Force

The Mighty,Mighty Air Force"

Sound off ONE, TWO

Sound Off Three, Four

US Air Force U.S. AIR FORCE

Former USAF Sgt.

[Andrew H.]

I believe it was the MFFB's that ended WW2 at a place called Hiroshima and Nagasaki and undoubtedly saved the lives of many Grunts and Jarheads because they did not have to invade Japan!

I think that had more to do with the scientists who designed the package rather than the FedEx men who delivered it!

[Ithikial_AU]

WWII CAS was fraught with danger for everyone involved.

Agreed but I think I'd rather have been the pilot.

Just curious for any thoughts...

Were pilots who made friendly fire mistakes ever informed when they got back to base?

You don't hear much about Germans making the same mistakes (at least on the same scale as the allies) were they any better when they ruled the skies at the start of the war?

[slysniper]

Well, I have found that I can get air strikes pretty close to my own troops.

I just make sure they are all in cover and hiding and not moving when it is time for the planes to arrive, along with the fact I am hopefully targeting enemy troops that are out in the open and exposed.

Not always a easy task to adcheive, but making my units hard to spot has allowed me to have successful air strikes pretty close to my units.

[c3k]

Agreed but I think I'd rather have been the pilot.

Just curious for any thoughts...

Were pilots who made friendly fire mistakes ever informed when they got back to base?

You don't hear much about Germans making the same mistakes (at least on the same scale as the allies) were they any better when they ruled the skies at the start of the war?

Just reading a book with pix of the aftermath of a friendly fire incident in 1940. Some Stukas nailed the spearhead of the German attack near a French town named Chemery. (Going by memory.) Several dozen casualties.

That's just a quick example I read about in passing in the last week. There were many more.

But ask redwolf whether or not that example is ridiculous.