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How I Miss the Bocage...


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I'm finding Market Garden a tough challenge especially when it comes to attacking in an urban area. I seem to lose many of my troops in penny packets as I scout along streets and then find it difficult to dislodge paras from their hiding places. Being able to bring plenty of firepower to bear can also be a tough challenge, especially when I can't 'get the angle' if you see what I mean. Anyone have any helpful tips for street fighting?

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I'm finding Market Garden a tough challenge especially when it comes to attacking in an urban area. I seem to lose many of my troops in penny packets as I scout along streets and then find it difficult to dislodge paras from their hiding places. Being able to bring plenty of firepower to bear can also be a tough challenge, especially when I can't 'get the angle' if you see what I mean. Anyone have any helpful tips for street fighting?

Recon by fire is the only way..here is a great set of posts in the CMSF tactics forum about urban warfare and how to go about it..lots of area fire at any building you suspect or are going to take eventually if anyone is home you'll see movement.

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I still haven't tried much of the Market Garden stuff yet, and here I was thinking that the bocage was hard to deal with.

Before I dove into Market Garden I wanted to finish up the Kampfgruppe Engel campaign. That last mission in the campaign was a damn nightmare. Not only did I have to attack up a steep hill in a frontal assault against dug-in Polish positions behind multiple hedgerow lines, but I was heavily outnumbered as well.

Hedgerows seem to provide better cover than buildings. Hitting a building with one or two tank shells usually seems to quiet down the infantry hiding inside, but not with hedgerows. They just pop right back up and keep shooting again.

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Recon by fire is the only way..here is a great set of posts in the CMSF tactics forum about urban warfare and how to go about it..lots of area fire at any building you suspect or are going to take eventually if anyone is home you'll see movement.

Thanks for this. I'll see what I can learn.

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A 3 to 1 adavantage is generally required for victory in normal conditions all thing being equal. In urban combat that goes up to 7 to 1 if not higher. No real easy way to take a built up area if the defender is willing to fight.

Perhaps in game terms pounding it with artillery may work to a degree by killing defenders Inreal life that often just complicated matters by creating lots of rubble and obstructions. Since the game doesn't model rubble you may get away with it - if you have the arty available.

Tanks aren't as powerful in urban areas anymore, still useful. AA weapons will be useful.

It also appears to me the buildings in Holland protect infantry much better. Your resupply trucks and vechicles are going to become even more valuable as you'll be using up lots of ammo.

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I still haven't tried much of the Market Garden stuff yet, and here I was thinking that the bocage was hard to deal with.

Before I dove into Market Garden I wanted to finish up the Kampfgruppe Engel campaign. That last mission in the campaign was a damn nightmare. Not only did I have to attack up a steep hill in a frontal assault against dug-in Polish positions behind multiple hedgerow lines, but I was heavily outnumbered as well.

Hedgerows seem to provide better cover than buildings. Hitting a building with one or two tank shells usually seems to quiet down the infantry hiding inside, but not with hedgerows. They just pop right back up and keep shooting again.

Kenzie, machine guns are much better at suppressing enemies behind bocage. Use Target Light and you will likely have better results.

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I'm finding Market Garden a tough challenge especially when it comes to attacking in an urban area. I seem to lose many of my troops in penny packets as I scout along streets and then find it difficult to dislodge paras from their hiding places. Being able to bring plenty of firepower to bear can also be a tough challenge, especially when I can't 'get the angle' if you see what I mean. Anyone have any helpful tips for street fighting?

Assuming you mean British paras (traitor ;)) the goal seems to be reducing them from afar before closing in. The paras' quality and morale are high and the Germans can't match their devastating close quarters fire power. Stens and what not. But their ammo reserves are not limitless. And help is not on the way.

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Interestingly enough I don't seem to have problems with urban areas or bocage country in general, but open ground kicks me in the shingles every time.

As long as I have cover, I am golden.

But if you ask me to attack over open ground, It will be a disaster 9 times out of 10.

You have a few options that will help.

1. Establish firepower superiority. This requires a large edge in either numbers or quality, or better yet, both. You suppress the opposition and keep them suppressed while moving troops in close enough to grenade the bad guys.

2. Use artillery or tanks to blow the bejesus out of them. Dead enemies don't shoot back. And even if they aren't all dead, they will be mightily suppressed. Just remember to call off the strike when you are close enough to start to feel the effects yourself.

3. Smoke 'em if you have it. If they can't see you, they can't shoot you. This may actually work better in the game sometimes than in real life. However, unless you are dropping WP right on their positions, it won't do anything to suppress them. Which means that when your guys emerge from the smoke, the enemy will be ready to fight, which is not so good.

Best of both worlds: Use smoke to mask movement across an open area until you reach good cover from which to achieve firepower superiority.

4. In any case, look around and make sure that you are using the best route of approach. The difference might only be that one has some slight undulations in the ground where your guys can hunker down and catch their breath for a minute. Before you start, you should put the camera down to the lowest level and go over the ground that has to be covered to search for low spots. You might be surprised at how many there are in ground that looks perfectly smooth and flat from a higher angle. If you play WEGO, the amount of time you can devote to recon is limited only by your lifespan and patience.

If none of these approaches works to your satisfaction, quit the current scenario and start a new one, an option you might not have in real life.

:D

Michael

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I bet that just like recipes, there are some secrets, tactics snd strategies out there that some don't share. I've discovered some things I'd rather not discuss and I'm pretty sure there are others.

I've also seen my oponents do some useful and interesting stuff that I'm more than happy to incorporate into my bag of tricks.

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I bet that just like recipes, there are some secrets, tactics snd strategies out there that some don't share. I've discovered some things I'd rather not discuss and I'm pretty sure there are others.

I've also seen my oponents do some useful and interesting stuff that I'm more than happy to incorporate into my bag of tricks.

You could at least share one or two db_zero.

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You could at least share one or two db_zero.

Actually I meant overall not just urban combat. I knew at setup I should not have placed the AT gun to cover the road, but did so anyway. I would have been better served placing it behing a building where it would be more survivable and capable of using enfilide fire.

I also just got through a series of turns in a non urban environment where we had a brutal, nasty fight in the woods. I had the defending positional advantage and thought I could easily handle what my opponent had, but he used a tactic that negated my advantage and nearly overran my position until I used his tactics againt him and stopped him cold. I watched the replays over and over and it was brutal. Fighting in wooded areas is probably as nasty as urban areas.

I'm sure we'll eventually see a Hurtgen Forrest battle that will probably turn some players off.

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I bet that just like recipes, there are some secrets, tactics snd strategies out there that some don't share. I've discovered some things I'd rather not discuss and I'm pretty sure there are others.

I've also seen my oponents do some useful and interesting stuff that I'm more than happy to incorporate into my bag of tricks.

Come on spill the beans.....

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Actually I meant overall not just urban combat. I knew at setup I should not have placed the AT gun to cover the road, but did so anyway. I would have been better served placing it behing a building where it would be more survivable and capable of using enfilide fire.

I also just got through a series of turns in a non urban environment where we had a brutal, nasty fight in the woods. I had the defending positional advantage and thought I could easily handle what my opponent had, but he used a tactic that negated my advantage and nearly overran my position until I used his tactics againt him and stopped him cold. I watched the replays over and over and it was brutal. Fighting in wooded areas is probably as nasty as urban areas.

I'm sure we'll eventually see a Hurtgen Forrest battle that will probably turn some players off.

I was trying to sneak some info out of you db_zero..since we are in a battle right now :) I was hoping you would not realise it was me :P

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Fighting in wooded areas is probably as nasty as urban areas.

So true, so many times I have seen both sides men running away in confusion. Amazing to to watch.

Please do tell what method your opponent used on your men in the woods that you used against him later.

Pretty please.

:D

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Rubble most certainly is modeled.

true but not quite the way it would and could be used in RL. It is depicted to a degree, but when a building collapses it is generally not flat. Rubble terrain can be created in the editor, but it generally won't be in game when for example a building collapses. A rubble tile also has issues in that movement through it is still very similar to moving into a building only now you are standing in an open tile.

I don't expect to see much change at least for the near future in that, but would love to see a bit more variation in that. Partial walls, mounded rubble etc would be a nice addition to the feel of urban combat.

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true but not quite the way it would and could be used in RL. It is depicted to a degree, but when a building collapses it is generally not flat...

Indeed, though "rubbled" houses do have some vertical component that blocks LOS. It's also true that IRL, a collapsing house doesn't fall neatly into its own footprint, at least not without some stringent efforts by a knowledgeable demolitions engineer... Having rubble generated in some/all adjacent ASs would be a welcome increase in verisimilitude.

A rubble tile also has issues in that movement through it is still very similar to moving into a building only now you are standing in an open tile.

Interesting you should say this. I can't say I've noticed troops bothering with notional "doors"; have I been fortunate, or is there something else you mean...? And when you say "open" you mean "not enclosed", rather than "open and devoid of cover"?

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