Metacritic reviews

[sburke]

The general gaming world is bigger now but also more dumbed down. A number of people should appreciate more engaging games increasingly more. If the development in user acceptable goes down instead something is wrong.

And just in this thread we have a good number of CMx2 regular saying they don't play much else. No room to grow?

I think you kind of answered the question about room to grow by the simple statement that the gaming world is dumbed down. Personally I agree and it's why not much else holds my interest.

and thanks for not making fun of my lack of hmm maybe dexterity? When it comes to the user interface. I really do spend so much more of my time reviewing a turn that the UI doesn't really phase me much. I have my own list of things I'd like to see and it mostly revolves around building types, flavor items, terrain types etc.

[Battlefront.com]

BTW, most of the "criticism" of CM in the Metacritic reviews aren't even factually accurate or are just opinion, not fact as stated. I didn't see much in the way of criticism of the UI either. More people were bitching about the lack of WeGo TCP/IP than anything else. Which is yet another example why Metacritic scores, in general, aren't worth much. I've stopped looking at them when checking out movie/TV reviews for the same reason. It's a fact of life that people are more likely to post something negative than positive. That's because people that are upset are more likely to vent compared to happy people praising.

Steve

[MikeyD]

I have an old buddy who long ago attended a function and found himself sitting at the same table as the publisher of 'Consumer Reports' magazine. My buddy proceeded to spend the rest of the evening bending the poor guy's ear telling him exactly how his magazine was 'doing it all wrong' and giving detailed instructions about how to fix things. My buddy was all of nineteen years old at the time. It was years later that he was diagnosed a having Asperger syndrome - think Sheldon Cooper on 'Big Bang Theory'. You do have to wonder about the mental state of someone who fixates on a computer game that he claims to dislike for years at a stretch, including detailed fantasy instructions about how to 'fix' it.

[lordhedgwich]

For about 75% of our total audience, perhaps. As anybody whose frequented these Forums over the last 13 years will know... Eastern Front is my favorite topic, but I'm not blind to the reality that the Western Front is where the sales are at. I bet if we put out an all inclusive 1941-1945 Eastern Front game it would be outsold by a Battle of the Bulge game.

Argue all you like, but if you haven't been on the sales and development side of gaming then kindly keep in mind that you don't know what you're talking about

Where Eastern Front shines, from a sales standpoint, is it's predictability. The Eastern Front is HUGE and offers us tons of game opportunities. Each one is almost as likely as any other to sell strong. Not fantastic, but strong. Which means we are more willing to develop Eastern Front games because we are confident they aren't risky. Provided we scale our development costs to the effort it's a win-win for everybody. It's why we have waited so long to do Eastern Front, in fact. We had Modern and Western Front "fund" the game engine we now have. Which means we don't need to plow huge resources into the game portion of the Eastern Front since it's already (mostly) developed. If it wasn't I can assure you we wouldn't have an Eastern Front game already well under way.

Steve

I know western front sells better and im not saying what you guys are doing is wrong. I just really want to be the soviets. And since i found combat mission last year most other ww2 strategy games just seem dull to me now... So i just need my eastfront cm fix lol

oh and a battle of the buldge game does sound fun. But i need meh soviets

[Ithikial_AU]

For about 75% of our total audience, perhaps. As anybody whose frequented these Forums over the last 13 years will know... Eastern Front is my favorite topic, but I'm not blind to the reality that the Western Front is where the sales are at. I bet if we put out an all inclusive 1941-1945 Eastern Front game it would be outsold by a Battle of the Bulge game.

Didn't Fortress Italy sales surprise you guys in a good way? Never know maybe the Eastern Front will do the same.

[Oddball_E8]

For about 75% of our total audience, perhaps. As anybody whose frequented these Forums over the last 13 years will know... Eastern Front is my favorite topic, but I'm not blind to the reality that the Western Front is where the sales are at. I bet if we put out an all inclusive 1941-1945 Eastern Front game it would be outsold by a Battle of the Bulge game.

Argue all you like, but if you haven't been on the sales and development side of gaming then kindly keep in mind that you don't know what you're talking about

Where Eastern Front shines, from a sales standpoint, is it's predictability. The Eastern Front is HUGE and offers us tons of game opportunities. Each one is almost as likely as any other to sell strong. Not fantastic, but strong. Which means we are more willing to develop Eastern Front games because we are confident they aren't risky. Provided we scale our development costs to the effort it's a win-win for everybody. It's why we have waited so long to do Eastern Front, in fact. We had Modern and Western Front "fund" the game engine we now have. Which means we don't need to plow huge resources into the game portion of the Eastern Front since it's already (mostly) developed. If it wasn't I can assure you we wouldn't have an Eastern Front game already well under way.

Steve

Not if you market it in russia and use a russian publisher

Those former soviets are completely nuts when it comes to WW2 games that portray the russians...

Of course, you would have to make a localized version with cyrillic text and all... but might be worth the effort

just be ready to face an onslaught of complaints about how the T-34 should be able to knock out anything from 1000 meters, since the new wave of national pride over there has taken some absurd expressions...

[zmoney]

Well I am thinking of going over there and leaving a horrible review because no east front game is out yet. West front/ Market Garden= Boring garden!

[zmoney]

For about 75% of our total audience, perhaps. As anybody whose frequented these Forums over the last 13 years will know... Eastern Front is my favorite topic, but I'm not blind to the reality that the Western Front is where the sales are at. I bet if we put out an all inclusive 1941-1945 Eastern Front game it would be outsold by a Battle of the Bulge game.

Argue all you like, but if you haven't been on the sales and development side of gaming then kindly keep in mind that you don't know what you're talking about

Steve

You have only released one CM east front game to my knowledge so how can you say it will under sale? From what I thought I remembered was that CMBO sold the best followed by CMBB, lastly CMAK sold the worst. Am I correct in my recollection?

[SpeakEasy]

Metacritic review = submitted

Total User Review Score = bumped up from 6.1 to 6.2

[lordhedgwich]

Metacritic review = submitted

Total User Review Score = bumped up from 6.1 to 6.2

I just went and signed up and put my reviews in got CMBN from 6.2 - 6.4 and fortress italy up from 7.4 - 7.7

[Battlefront.com]

Didn't Fortress Italy sales surprise you guys in a good way? Never know maybe the Eastern Front will do the same.

Italy sales were about what we expected compared to Normandy. Which is to say they were good, but not in the same ballpark. We expect Eastern Front will be somewhere inbetween. Probably about the same level as Modern, though Modern might edge it out a bit. That will be an interesting thing to see play out.

Not if you market it in russia and use a russian publisher

Those former soviets are completely nuts when it comes to WW2 games that portray the russians...

Of course, you would have to make a localized version with cyrillic text and all... but might be worth the effort

We've done all that in the past and certainly a localized Russian game will boost sales. But only if it uses our DRM. Because Russians love to pirate. I remember getting pictures of CMBB being sold in a market in one the "stans" (I think it was Uzbekistan) for $1 not long after the game came out.

just be ready to face an onslaught of complaints about how the T-34 should be able to knock out anything from 1000 meters, since the new wave of national pride over there has taken some absurd expressions...

Oh tell me about it. We're already bracing for it with the upcoming Modern game. These Forums are going to be "interesting" for a while after release.

You have only released one CM east front game to my knowledge so how can you say it will under sale?

I haven't put a nail gun up against my foot and pulled the trigger, but I'm pretty confident it will go through my steel tip and into my foot without having actually done it

But seriously, it's not just CM. Eastern Front has always sold less than Western Front for every wargame company in history as far as I know. There's a ton of very good, sound reasons for that. And they are covered in detail every time this discussion comes up. You can do a search on this Forum and probably find it a dozen times over.

From what I thought I remembered was that CMBO sold the best followed by CMBB, lastly CMAK sold the worst. Am I correct in my recollection?

Correct.

Where Eastern Front has an advantage over Western Front is cumulative content and interest level. There's a ton more content to cover on the Eastern Front compared to the Western Front and an Eastern Front fan is likely to purchase all of it. Or nearly all of it. Which means we have a strong incentive to make lots of East Front content as long as we keep the costs inline with sales. Now that the game engine is matured we can do that.

Bottom line is the Eastern Front fans have nothing to worry about. Lots of stuff planned and the wait for the first release isn't that far off. We're sure the sales will make it worth doing many more, despite the fact that no single Eastern Front game will ever do as well as any single Western Front game.

Steve

[Redwolf]

BTW, most of the "criticism" of CM in the Metacritic reviews aren't even factually accurate or are just opinion, not fact as stated.

Yes, that is how reviews work. They first fiddle with the game to see whether it is fun or otherwise engaging. After having made up their mind they then look for hard facts which they selectively pick to justify their judgment. The two have very little in common. It doesn't change the fact that the reviewer didn't find the game to be worth playing.

I didn't see much in the way of criticism of the UI either. More people were bitching about the lack of WeGo TCP/IP than anything else.

The UI is too difficult to criticize in specifics, especially when the problem is a lack of information about what's going on when your own knowledge of the game isn't sufficient to have an idea.

Removing features that used to be in one version of a software in a later software always has devastating effects on public statements. It triggers a lot of red flags in people, some of whom might even have used the feature in the past. And it is always a welcome item for the "can you be more specific?" list that people have to compile after having up their mind that they don't like the thing.

Having said that, the metacritics people aren't alone in missing this feature. It's like a new version of Apple Mail only supporting uucp.

[MarkEzra]

Here's what I have learned from the internets (sic GHB):

Never act on the advice of a computer programmer on anything OTHER than the program he created...and then only 50%

[Buzz]

Sound business reasoning to me.... Eastern Front is huge compared to the Western Front and an Eastern Front fan is likely to purchase all of it.

BTW: I took care of a fellow who put actually a nail gun up against his foot (covered in a fancy new boot with steel toe) and pulled the trigger. Went through his foot. Best part... he was going to test his new plastic construction helmet the day before with the same nail gun but was talked out of it and went drinking.

I think "the upcoming Modern game"... was mentioned. Didn't quite catch that name & release date Steve

[Oddball_E8]

We've done all that in the past and certainly a localized Russian game will boost sales. But only if it uses our DRM. Because Russians love to pirate. I remember getting pictures of CMBB being sold in a market in one the "stans" (I think it was Uzbekistan) for $1 not long after the game came out.

Steve

Yeah, might want to consider making it download only or somehow otherwise locked to your DRM.

Games like WoT don't have that problem, naturally, and they sell massively in russia.

[A Canadian Cat]

Best part... he was going to test his new plastic construction helmet the day before with the same nail gun but was talked out of it and went drinking.

Oh man he was so close to qualifying to be nominated for a Darwin Award

[Michael Emrys]

Eastern Front has always sold less than Western Front for every wargame company in history as far as I know.

Er, should we assume you are speaking only of computer wargame companies? Reason I ask is ISTR that virtually every board wargame company during the '70s and early '80s brought out one or more East Front games, and as far as I know, most of them sold well enough to pay their way. The demand was seemingly huge with several surveys showing the East Front as consistently the most popular setting. I can well understand that the demography of wargamers has changed significantly in the last 30-40 years, but the history of the hobby does go back a little farther than that, you know.

Michael

[Buzz]

re: Darwin - Yeah. It is amazing what some folks do after they say Wanna see sumpin cool... Hold my beer and watch this!

I am all in for the Eastern Front CMx2 the entire meal because it is just so full of intersteing units features so endless toy box.

It will be interesting to see what New Modern does in sales as well. I suspect with CMx2 it will do better than some think despite XYZ reviews. One of the best sales tools Battlefront has are their Demos. Play it. Like it. Buy it.

[altipueri]

I just looked at Metacritic for some of the games I play:

CMBN

Hearts of Iron

Command Ops

AGEODs Alea Jacta Est, Rise of Prussia etc.

I probably would have been put off all of them if I had read the scores first.

If you ignore the sudden rush of CMBN fans voting 10 in the last few days since this thread started the other views aren't all unfair. Read GreenAsJades user review for which he gave a 7.

For me CMBN is CMBO with better graphics but a clunkier interface and RTS.

I think the interesting conundrum for BFC is that judging from this forum there's a hard core of players who have had ten or more years of great gameplay for about 250 dollars. Keeping them happy and making the game easily accessible for new customers is the problem. Having drunk the RTS kool-aid I think co-operative play and RTS have to be embraced fully. This means it must really really work fast first time, and at lower levels of difficulty give easy victories to new players. You need Arcade levels 1 to 5 before you even try Basic Training and Veteran. You then get flamed by the diehards for dumbing down the game.

[Michael Emrys]

You then get flamed by the diehards for dumbing down the game.

Damn right!

Michael

[Battlefront.com]

Yes, that is how reviews work. They first fiddle with the game to see whether it is fun or otherwise engaging. After having made up their mind they then look for hard facts which they selectively pick to justify their judgment. The two have very little in common. It doesn't change the fact that the reviewer didn't find the game to be worth playing.

No kidding. I never thought of that in all the years I've made games and had them reviewed. Up until now I thought people only make game decisions based on clinical analysis and deep study. Now you're telling me gamers aren't rational? Wow.

Sarcasm aside, what is your point? Do you think we should be concerned that a half dozen people posted negative reviews? Really? What about the millions of people that would download CM even if it was available for free, not to mention play it, not to mention enjoy it? Because if you're saying that our work, or anybody's for that matter, should be judged by the people that don't enjoy it... man, you're really looking at the world in a different way.

The UI is too difficult to criticize in specifics, especially when the problem is a lack of information about what's going on when your own knowledge of the game isn't sufficient to have an idea.

Putting aside that most of the criticisms on that site were coming from people who don't fit this description, you're still inventing your own narrative. When I see people have problems with UI they are very clear about it. "this game is stupid! My units don't go where I tell them too! I right click on a unit and I don't get orders! There's too much going on and I don't have a clue how to control it." I should know because I've read plenty of comments like that since before Battlefront was even a thought.

Removing features that used to be in one version of a software in a later software always has devastating effects on public statements.

Sure, some people hate change and go kicking and screaming into a new experience. They don't give a flying fig what other people want or don't want. They don't give a flying fig if the developer has goals other than to make that one individual perfectly happy. Such people are self centered and view everything in that context. I get it... really, I do. But so what?

I don't think the few cranks out there STILL bleating on and on and on about CMx1 vs. CMx2 is "devastating". What would have been devastating is us being stupid enough to listen to them. Because I can promise you, without ANY doubt in my mind, Battlefront would have been out of business. Just like all the other wargame companies that refused the challenge of innovation in favor of pandering to an every shrinking pool of sycophants.

Having said that, the metacritics people aren't alone in missing this feature. It's like a new version of Apple Mail only supporting uucp.

Sure, we know that any feature we don't have, whether we ever had it or not, will be missed by someone. That's because everybody wants to have everything they desire and they they want it now. Since that's an unrealistic goal, people constantly get disappointed. The more "glass half empty" someone's mindset is, the more they let what isn't there distract them from what is there. I feel sorry for such people, but I'm not going to base business decisions on such thinking.

TCP/IP WeGo is certainly missed by some. It was also missed by the initial CMBO buyers who only had PBEM since we hadn't yet made TCP/IP a feature. But I don't think our sales were harmed by the lack of it, either then or now, beyond the usual tiny number of "single issue voters" that are present in any setting.

That is not to say that we wouldn't make some existing CM customers happier if we had TCP/IP WeGo. No doubt we would. Which is why it will happen. Unfortunately it will happen without playback because that's a technical issue which we do not feel is worth investing in. It's a business decision. Fortunately, unlike so many of our predecessors, we're good at making business decisions like this. As evidenced that we're still around and they aren't.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

BTW: I took care of a fellow who put actually a nail gun up against his foot (covered in a fancy new boot with steel toe) and pulled the trigger. Went through his foot. Best part... he was going to test his new plastic construction helmet the day before with the same nail gun but was talked out of it and went drinking.

I don't think they should have stopped him. Might prevent him from harming someone else in his lifetime of abject stupidity.

I think "the upcoming Modern game"... was mentioned. Didn't quite catch that name & release date Steve

Soon

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

I just looked at Metacritic for some of the games I play:

CMBN

Hearts of Iron

Command Ops

AGEODs Alea Jacta Est, Rise of Prussia etc.

I probably would have been put off all of them if I had read the scores first.

Exactly. I can't count how many movies and TV shows that had poor metacritic ratings that I watched and think are the best things ever made. Which is why I don't look at those scores any more. But then again, I think realty TV and any movie with a sequel number over III shouldn't be made. So I'm definitely in the minority

BTW, the guys behind the Scream movie and others have some of the lowest ratings and constantly get awarded things for worst of this and worst of that. Yet all of their movies are profitable. Some WILDLY profitable. My guess is they don't care about the reviews as they're lighting cigars with $100 bills and using Euros in the bathroom.

If you ignore the sudden rush of CMBN fans voting 10 in the last few days since this thread started the other views aren't all unfair. Read GreenAsJades user review for which he gave a 7.

That's another thing. The CMBN that was reviewed by most of those guys is by far and away not the same CMBN that exists today. Just like Shock Force's initial reaction was sometimes quite nasty, but then those same people a year later were saying they loved it. Doesn't change the low marks they gave us at the time. Static reviews of evolving products are also something to be very wary of. It's like saying "this year of x car sucked" without mentioning that the next year it became the best care on the market. If you don't take stuff like this into consideration then you're highly likely depriving yourself of something you would otherwise enjoy.

For me CMBN is CMBO with better graphics but a clunkier interface and RTS.

I've seen many, many people who said that until they went back and played CMBO. Then they fully realized how much CMBO "lacks" compared to CMBN.

I think the interesting conundrum for BFC is that judging from this forum there's a hard core of players who have had ten or more years of great gameplay for about 250 dollars. Keeping them happy and making the game easily accessible for new customers is the problem. Having drunk the RTS kool-aid I think co-operative play and RTS have to be embraced fully. This means it must really really work fast first time, and at lower levels of difficulty give easy victories to new players. You need Arcade levels 1 to 5 before you even try Basic Training and Veteran. You then get flamed by the diehards for dumbing down the game.

Yes, and you don't get any new customers to make up for the ones you lose. The worst thing a niche market product can do is try to satisfy two different markets with the same product. If we are to go more mass market it won't be with CMx2, but with a totally new game engine that is built from the ground up for that market and not the grognard market. To do otherwise would be suicidal from a business standpoint.

Steve

[Buzz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buzz 

BTW: I took care of a fellow who put actually a nail gun up against his foot (covered in a fancy new boot with steel toe) and pulled the trigger. Went through his foot. Best part... he was going to test his new plastic construction helmet the day before with the same nail gun but was talked out of it and went drinking.

I don't think they should have stopped him. Might prevent him from harming someone else in his lifetime of abject stupidity.

If “Stupidity” could be a legal “Cause of Death” CDC would need to print many, many millions of bumper stickers.

Quote:

I think "the upcoming Modern game"... was mentioned. Didn't quite catch that name & release date Steve 

Soon 

Steve

Thank You Steve

[Michael Emrys]

"Soon" to Steve may mean some time around next April. You know, tax time. That always comes too soon.

Michael