INF vs TANKS

[chaos49]

Hi

Why dont my troops loop demo charge and grenades out the windows on 1 floor on the tanks that right under them ?

[costard]

The instinct for self preservation is modelled to some extent. 'splody things, paricularly big 'splody things, aren't nice at close range.

[medlinke]

I'm surprised there's not some bonuses for infantry vs. AFV in "city" terrain because of the vulnerability of AFV in cities.

Likewise, open top vehicles SHOULD be susceptible to attacks from a higher elevation since units would be shooting down into the vehicle.

[Sailor Malan2]

Are you saying you think they are not? Open topped vehicles take horrible losses when fired at from a height advantage. Or are you still talking about Bangy things?

[chaos49]

ok so tanks are invulnerable in city so long any enemy is inside a house

[passeur]

No, panzerfausts and AT rifle grenade (that can be fired from inside a building) can cause some trouble to tanks.

[costard]

3rd floor is twice as far away as 1st floor, and has two more ceilings between it and the 'splody thing. If they're consistently not doing their thing in this case - attacking from the third floor - I believe you might have a legitimate gripe.

chaos49, why not try a test with crack/elite troops? Present the results and you're more likely to be listened to and have some influence on the design of the game.

I think what you're seeing is mostly about pixeltruppen not always being prepared to die, or be brave: morale modelling. I might well be wrong... I often am.

[Sublime]

No, panzerfausts and AT rifle grenade (that can be fired from inside a building) can cause some trouble to tanks.

Fausts CAN NOT be fired from inside buildings.

Chaos - the thing is that the game is still somewhat abstracted. The grenade or demo charge on the tank is supposed to represent the infantry dashing out and attacking the tank. Sometimes this will not happen because of - A. Suppression. B. Experience C. Motivation D. Command and Control E. Correct Weapons to use F. Length of time near enemy vehicle

Its all well and good to shout at your screen and bemoan how cowardly your men are. However if it was your as$ that had to rush out in the street and throw the satchel charge under the tank you may hesitate a minute or two as well...

Everyone should also remember the terrain tiles in CM. They represent 8m or so if I remember correctly. Thats around 28 feet or so... Longer than it looks from our 'god view'.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

It is possible for infantry to knock out tanks in urban terrain but you can't micromanage them. You are a battlegroup commander, not a section leader though you can still influence what your computerized subordiates do. However, they will decide for themselves when to throw grenades and demolition charges. You might order rthem to assault that tank but thy might not do it at least not successfully.

[womble]

I don't think it has anything at all to do with morale or not wanting to be near an explosion. Infantry don't throw demo charges out of upper storey windows as close assault on tanks because they have to be on the same level as the tank to close assault it. It might be that they won't close assault from the cover of buildings at all, I've seen nothing that persuades me they can't from the ground floor and I think I've seen non-demo-armed troops make a CA sally from a ground floor on an adjacent tank.

Needs testing, I reckon.

[c3k]

Fausts CAN NOT be fired from inside buildings.

Chaos - the thing is that the game is still somewhat abstracted. The grenade or demo charge on the tank is supposed to represent the infantry dashing out and attacking the tank. Sometimes this will not happen because of - A. Suppression. B. Experience C. Motivation D. Command and Control E. Correct Weapons to use F. Length of time near enemy vehicle

Its all well and good to shout at your screen and bemoan how cowardly your men are. However if it was your as$ that had to rush out in the street and throw the satchel charge under the tank you may hesitate a minute or two as well...

Everyone should also remember the terrain tiles in CM. They represent 8m or so if I remember correctly. Thats around 28 feet or so... Longer than it looks from our 'god view'.

My bold. Conversion factor for meters to feet is roughly 3.2808399. So, 8m is approximately 26' 2 61/64". That is side to side. The diagonal distance across the complete square action spot is, very roughly,

37' 1 13/32" .

If your man is at one corner of one action spot, and the tank is at the opposite corner of the diagonally adjacent action spot, why, we could be talking about a distance of, oh, about 74' 2 13/16". (Ignoring armor thickness and how that would "push" the vehicle closer to the infantry, all distances being based on unit centers. Of course.)

Now, a bit of math. The official world record for the 100 yard dash is about 9 seconds. (This being rough estimations, let's stick with whole seconds. For now.) The diagonal distance, above, is about .24744791666 of the 100 yard dash distance. Given a constant velocity during the dash (I know! This is a horrible assumption, but we've got to start somewhere!), then it should take about 2 1/4 seconds to cover that distance.

Now, let's add an allowance in for combat gear and kit, versus track shoes and little flouncy shorts. Say, double the time? 5 1/2 seconds. Rough terrain rather than a springy track? Maybe a bit of wind against you? Let's double it again. Maybe 11 seconds for our running man to spring forward against the tank. Simple to do, then another 11 to run back to cover. (We could reduce that by, say, 1 second, because he is not burdened with the weight of whatever explosive he just affixed to, or near, the tank.)

So, 11 seconds there, 10 seconds back. 21 seconds total.

Let's add in a factor to take into account the possibility of death and mutilation for attempting this little run...

The time needed to screw one's courage to the sticking post? (My apologies to The Bard.) Oh, THAT is a doozy. About an hour. Maybe 4. Heck. The tank's already moving. Missed my chance. Sorry. I'll do it later.

[$Pec5]

c3k I wasn't expecting such an analytical response from you.

I was expecting something more along the lines of, "let your troops rush the tank in a human wave and clog its treads with stones and bodies for the glory of the attack..."

You suprised me

[passeur]

Fausts CAN NOT be fired from inside buildings.

Whoops! I stand corrected!

[chaos49]

Ok so i did a little quick test.

one platon pioneer from regular to elite and from high to extreme with 0 in leadership.

house 3 floor and after 10 min tank still alive and that is with attack orders.

tank was 6m from the house.

so if this is normal its safe to drive around in a city

[womble]

My bold. Conversion factor for meters to feet is roughly 3.2808399. So, 8m is approximately 26' 2 61/64". That is side to side. The diagonal distance across the complete square action spot is, very roughly,

37' 1 13/32" .

If your man is at one corner of one action spot, and the tank is at the opposite corner of the diagonally adjacent action spot, why, we could be talking about a distance of, oh, about 74' 2 13/16". (Ignoring armor thickness and how that would "push" the vehicle closer to the infantry, all distances being based on unit centers. Of course.)

Now, a bit of math. The official world record for the 100 yard dash is about 9 seconds. (This being rough estimations, let's stick with whole seconds. For now.) The diagonal distance, above, is about .24744791666 of the 100 yard dash distance. Given a constant velocity during the dash (I know! This is a horrible assumption, but we've got to start somewhere!), then it should take about 2 1/4 seconds to cover that distance.

Now, let's add an allowance in for combat gear and kit, versus track shoes and little flouncy shorts. Say, double the time? 5 1/2 seconds. Rough terrain rather than a springy track? Maybe a bit of wind against you? Let's double it again. Maybe 11 seconds for our running man to spring forward against the tank. Simple to do, then another 11 to run back to cover. (We could reduce that by, say, 1 second, because he is not burdened with the weight of whatever explosive he just affixed to, or near, the tank.)

So, 11 seconds there, 10 seconds back. 21 seconds total.

Let's add in a factor to take into account the possibility of death and mutilation for attempting this little run...

The time needed to screw one's courage to the sticking post? (My apologies to The Bard.) Oh, THAT is a doozy. About an hour. Maybe 4. Heck. The tank's already moving. Missed my chance. Sorry. I'll do it later.

Pshaw on all your running numbers!

In my current Italian Probe game, I watched one of my engineer squads hurl a demo charge approximately 34m (as far as I could tell using the target tool in the turn break, to the crater the pack created). So no need for all that undignified scurrying. A graceful lob and Robert's your auntie's live-in lover. Or not, when the demo pack misses...

Now I'm sure you'll agree 34m isn't really the range we'd expect "close assault" to be going in, and I think this particular situation demonstrates the abstraction that is CA. This was a "surprise" encounter in the smoke, with the tank having driven mostly through the squad before it was actually spotted (if only the animations were up to the "chase movie" diving out the way of the onrushing vehicle at the last minute ). Grenades were thrown, and 2 packs. One engineer reacted fairly quickly (but missed in his hurry), but the other was a sluggard, and the Sherman was probably right at the edge of CA range when he began throwing, but opening the distance at (I think) Fast, so by the time the demo charge was on its way it had much further than the "2AS" range CA seems usually to occur at. So the attack was resolved, I believe, even though it was out of range when it was displayed. Or maybe it makes sense that a charge large enough to leave a 4m crater in tarmac/cobbles can be thrown more than 100'...

[medlinke]

Are you saying you think they are not? Open topped vehicles take horrible losses when fired at from a height advantage. Or are you still talking about Bangy things?

I'm talking about dropping Demo Charges on them. Anything with a backblast wouldn't get fired from within an enclosed structure without at least a MAJOR chance for injuring others in the firing. I can see why they've not allowed that within CMBN.

In terms of driving in a city with impunity, I think the issue comes down to how credible the detection model employed by buttoned up tanks would be. If the tank is crew exposed...sorry to say it, but every infantryman would try to be Bobby McDermitt (an NBA star of the time) with their nades. You don't need to blow up the tank when you can kill the guys driving it after all.

[Pak40]

Ok so i did a little quick test.

one platon pioneer from regular to elite and from high to extreme with 0 in leadership.

house 3 floor and after 10 min tank still alive and that is with attack orders.

tank was 6m from the house.

So are you saying they used their demos and failed or didn't use their demos at all?

Try the same test with the pioneer on the 1st floor.

[womble]

I'm talking about dropping Demo Charges on them. Anything with a backblast wouldn't get fired from within an enclosed structure without at least a MAJOR chance for injuring others in the firing. I can see why they've not allowed that within CMBN.

In terms of driving in a city with impunity, I think the issue comes down to how credible the detection model employed by buttoned up tanks would be. If the tank is crew exposed...sorry to say it, but every infantryman would try to be Bobby McDermitt (an NBA star of the time) with their nades. You don't need to blow up the tank when you can kill the guys driving it after all.

If you're letting the tanks get that close, you'll also want to worry about the lack of elevation restrictions on the main gun...

[chaos49]

The dont use any weapon after 10 min with attack orders

And that was on ground plan 1.floor , 2.floor. 3.floor

[BLSTK]

My bold. Conversion factor for meters to feet is roughly 3.2808399. So, 8m is approximately 26' 2 61/64". That is side to side. The diagonal distance across the complete square action spot is, very roughly,

37' 1 13/32" .

If your man is at one corner of one action spot, and the tank is at the opposite corner of the diagonally adjacent action spot, why, we could be talking about a distance of, oh, about 74' 2 13/16". (Ignoring armor thickness and how that would "push" the vehicle closer to the infantry, all distances being based on unit centers. Of course.)

Now, a bit of math. The official world record for the 100 yard dash is about 9 seconds. (This being rough estimations, let's stick with whole seconds. For now.) The diagonal distance, above, is about .24744791666 of the 100 yard dash distance. Given a constant velocity during the dash (I know! This is a horrible assumption, but we've got to start somewhere!), then it should take about 2 1/4 seconds to cover that distance.

Now, let's add an allowance in for combat gear and kit, versus track shoes and little flouncy shorts. Say, double the time? 5 1/2 seconds. Rough terrain rather than a springy track? Maybe a bit of wind against you? Let's double it again. Maybe 11 seconds for our running man to spring forward against the tank. Simple to do, then another 11 to run back to cover. (We could reduce that by, say, 1 second, because he is not burdened with the weight of whatever explosive he just affixed to, or near, the tank.)

So, 11 seconds there, 10 seconds back. 21 seconds total.

Let's add in a factor to take into account the possibility of death and mutilation for attempting this little run...

The time needed to screw one's courage to the sticking post? (My apologies to The Bard.) Oh, THAT is a doozy. About an hour. Maybe 4. Heck. The tank's already moving. Missed my chance. Sorry. I'll do it later.

c3k, thanks for doing the math. How much time might we add for the odd change of underwear?

[Badger73]

<snipped>

The time needed to screw one's courage to the sticking post? (My apologies to The Bard.)

<snipped>

The bard might be sad. The quote goes, "But screw your courage to the sticking-place and we'll not fail."

Good post, though.

[mjkerner]

Chaos, try it without the attack order. No order is when I get the best 'nade action with my men.

[womble]

Just done a quick test m'self.

CMFI v1.01

Elite Fanatic US Breach team in a 3 storey building. Deployed on Level1

Regular Fanatic Luftwaffe PzIV parked outside the building with a covered arc away from the structure.

The breach team spotted the PzIV almost straight away, and the tank had intermittent spots on varying members of the team. The dogfaces took no action whatsoever against the tank whilst within the building. I didn't bother testing from higher floors, since if they won't close assault from the ground floor, they're not going to from higher up. As soon as they exited the building (they did have a target order on the tank that they'd been ignoring while inside), they chucked grenades and "housebricks" at the tank, destroying it quickly from the right rear.

Of course, they only managed to nail one of the escaping crew as they exited the tank and the remaining three pistoleers wiped out the breach team (Thompson, 2 Garand), but that's a different matter.

My conclusion is that infantry will, indeed, perform no close assault on a buttoned up tank from within a structure. Which kinda sucks.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Anything with a backblast wouldn't get fired from within an enclosed structure without at least a MAJOR chance for injuring others in the firing.

A persistent myth.

[medlinke]

A persistent myth.

Do you have a source for that? I'm very curious because all I've ever read and seen modeled in tactical level games like ASL and ATS suggests otherwise. I'd love to pick out an epic mistake to lord over my friends!