ALLIED : Gustav Line BETA AAR Round Two - Eye of the Elefant

[John Kettler]

Vark,

What you describe would be Fuze, MT (Mechanical Time). Time fuzes per se have been around for centuries, circa 1500, in fact, for mortars. Of course, back then it was fuse and combustible, not mechanical.

GreenAsJade,

We need some sort of fusion in the next game between your tactical graphics and Bil's topo work. Yet again I cry out for a tactical overlay!

Regards,

John Kettler

[GreenAsJade]

Are you crying out to _me_, in a particular, for a "tactical overlay"? What would that be, different to the various views I've already presented?

The zoom level 9 shot that I've been doing from time to time is supposed to show you the whole picture

Is the sniper dead or still kicking? If he manages to get out of this alive then send him to that KW scout from behind and shoot at him from point blank distance. That should negate sniper's injury, he he.

The sniper is still alive, though tired from all the sneaking around the place. It could be a challenge to get over to KW-man wihtout being spotted

by the overwatching Hill 130 beasts, but hey ... if Right KW-man can get all the way up one side without being spotted, maybe my sniper

could pull that off!!

(just got home from work, still absorbing the rest of the movie, which is once again "interesting")

[GreenAsJade]

Continuing with 0:53-0:52 ...

... other small strange things that happened are that spotting rounds did not continue to fall on The Spur. This could be because Bil's timing got messed up with KW-guy being forced to slow down to dodge bullets, or it could be because he's decided to use a TRP and drop a line of fire on Sunken Road. Given I know he's using TRP+arty, this has got to be high on his target list ... that's why there's only one poor unit in there.

Then... the recon-rush HT on the right hand side of the ridge ... stopped! I can think of only two explanations for this

1) It wants to stop and take a good look down onto Hill 109 Ridge (the West Ridge) and see if it can spot any nasty ATGs before proceeding, and calling up its tank friends

2) It is overwatching some infantry scouting that I can't see

or I suppose both of the above. The second HT is now coming up to join it. Curious that it stopped ... did it drop off some men I wonder (maybe they looted the dead sniper!?). I get the feeling I am about to experience lots of snakes in the grass on this flank.

Whatever the case, it's been leading my M10 in Tame a merry dance. The turn before last he wizzed to the end of Tame to cut off the expected HT thrust towards Hill 109. This turn he repositioned to cut off this HT recon push ... which never came far enough for him to see! Next turn he'll reposition again.

[GreenAsJade]

(BTW, would you guys ever click through one of these shots to see it in greater res? As a test, I posted the above one ^^^ at flickr in high res (IE I didn't scale it down before uploading it). So if you click on it, then use action->view all sizes, you can see whatever size you like ... if I posted them that way, would it be any use? The main issue at my end is uploading 4x sized pictures!)

And so of course, we come to the biggest thing in this turn, foreshadowed in the above pic... I get another look at the Elefant with an ATG! (And interestingly, the M10 shown in that picture can't see the Elefant, there are trees in the way)

The Elefant has moved up from Left Tit to Right Tit, sitting on the road.

Wouldn't you know it, though ... once again, the angle is bad:

I was thinking there for a moment to open fire on the Elefant with the mortar on Hill 109, to get it to turn around and present a better side on view to the ATG.

However, I went and looked at the angles ... in fact, it's no improvement. If the Elefant is facing towards Hill 109, the angle that ATG gets on it is almost identical, just on it's other side.

So, it seems I'm left with little choice but to open fire. It's a shame, because this is exactly what Bil wants: to flush out my defensive positions - a better plan would be to have well hidden ATGs and good fire discipline.

In fact, I'm gonna go and do me some testing on spotting of ATGs before going any further, and see if the JgPz spot was a fluke, or the norm...

GaJ

[GreenAsJade]

Some interesting things from testing.

At that sort of angle and distance, it takes 3 shots to hit. It seems that they always bounce off. At some point, the test Elefant decided to back off, and turned to face the gun as it reversed. At that time, it took a full frontal hit that caused "armour spalling" and the crew bailed!

Also, the Elefant took 15 minutes before it spotted the ATG (with the ATG not hiding, not firing) at that range and angle. Troops nearby without binos never spotted it. Troops with binos took about 10 minutes to spot it.

So either that JgPz got _very_ lucky, or maybe some other unit that had been looking for longer in Bil's force was the spotter?

Furthermore, the ATGs _never_ spotted the infantry that I placed in the grass and wheat in the vicinity of the test Elefant. Despite the infantry moving and hunting.

Well, what this confirms is once again I have to take the shot. There is never another time when I might get the jump, because I know that Bil has infantry around that area, so they will spot my gun before I spot them.

Who knows, maybe the Elefant will turn to face me and I get a lucky armour spall!

This is a really serious dent in the defence plan that I have though ... my midfield is set up, especially on the left, to spot infantry recon and deny it, forcing tanks to come forwards and face ATGs.

I'm being forced by the threat of unspotted inf spotting my ATGs to open prematurely with the ATGs.

I need to get more inf eyes up the field to counter this... and unless Bil has woken up to the concealment he has, he'll be wondering why I'm opening up now ... happily, I would imagine. But hopefully he doesn't wake up to the fact that he might be able to walk an inf force into SMI under my nose!!

GaJ

[Hister]

I wouldn't take that shot with the ATG - the only thing it could achieve is hit the TC in his head and for that job your mortar team is better suited. After the shelling will be going on around it he will have to reposition that beast and it might not have a LOS on your ATG any more. No tto say it could also hit the top of the tank! Thus your ATG will be spared to live longer and actually hit something that it can penetrate! You have only 3 ATG left, together with 4 TD's - those guns are your spine without which you are a goner. OK, you still have zooks but with the systematic approach Bil has I doubt it you would manage to get them in their firing range. OK, grass is high and dense so there might be a window of opportunity for zooks to score a kill but that would be my last desperate resort.

I am aware of the fact your ATG can be spotted any time by Elephant but if you start shelling it and thus making it's LOS obscured by the smoke and dust Bil would probably had to move it out of harms way. Lure it away with any other less important asset and you gain an upper hand in all this. Shooting on a regular tank with that ATG is whole another story though - I wouldn't have hesitations to do so myself.

Am eager to learn what results you get from the ATG being spotted tests...

Hmm, someone tell me if I went over the line here with my suggestions - are such allowed? I'm just capitalizing on what GaJ sees so no breach of disclosure rules I believe right?

Edit: Ah, GaJ posted before me...

[newlife]

Good hunting

[GreenAsJade]

FWIW, I think that a statement of whether or not you would fire on an Elefant, is fine. As you say, the only context you gave was data I already presented, and you offered an opinion about the usefulness of hitting.

I like you logic. But... I sent the turn already having decided the other way, so now we will see! Why did I decide the other way: mostly because of the futilty and high likelihood of "saving" the ATG, only to have it spotted and mortared out of existence without ever firing at anything!

If it were only about the Elefant, or other units that I could see and predict my risk, I'd have held. But the high risk of many more eyes being out there that I don't know about and spotting that gun is really what makes the difference...

GaJ

[John Kettler]

GreenAsJade,

Re: Ferdie. Similar geometry, but different masking situation. (Was that elliptical enough for OPSEC?) Testing results most encouraging and surprising. Tactical overlay is a feature I want in the game, just like the acetate and grease pencil variety which commanders have used for over a century.

Oh! Take a look at the vid at the bottom here. You're looking at a potent reconstruction of a Roman secret weapon. This guy's shooting to almost 1000 yards. Recognize any familiar component?

http://wattsunique.com/blog/?paged=5

Regards,

John Kettler

[c3k]

The other solution would be to Limber the Gun, MOVE, at quick-time, to the rear of the Elefant, Unlimber, then fire! Sure, that'd take a lot of chutzpah, but wouldn't it be cool if it worked?

Are you testing on the same map?

Ken

[Michael Emrys]

Oh! Take a look at the vid at the bottom here. You're looking at a potent reconstruction of a Roman secret weapon. This guy's shooting to almost 1000 yards.

Guy does some really nice work.

Michael

[Andrew H.]

Some interesting things from testing.

At that sort of angle and distance, it takes 3 shots to hit. It seems that they always bounce off. At some point, the test Elefant decided to back off, and turned to face the gun as it reversed. At that time, it took a full frontal hit that caused "armour spalling" and the crew bailed!

Also, the Elefant took 15 minutes before it spotted the ATG (with the ATG not hiding, not firing) at that range and angle. Troops nearby without binos never spotted it. Troops with binos took about 10 minutes to spot it.

So either that JgPz got _very_ lucky, or maybe some other unit that had been looking for longer in Bil's force was the spotter?

Furthermore, the ATGs _never_ spotted the infantry that I placed in the grass and wheat in the vicinity of the test Elefant. Despite the infantry moving and hunting.

Well, what this confirms is once again I have to take the shot. There is never another time when I might get the jump, because I know that Bil has infantry around that area, so they will spot my gun before I spot them.

Who knows, maybe the Elefant will turn to face me and I get a lucky armour spall!

I'm being forced by the threat of unspotted inf spotting my ATGs to open prematurely with the ATGs.

GaJ

Interesting test results - and, yeah, you could also get a gun hit - there's certainly enough gun to hit. Or an immobilization.

I wouldn't have expected spalling with a front hit at that range, though.

[A Canadian Cat]

the turn 0:53-0:52

I vote go with the clock. It is the only thing you can just look at while you are watching and taking screen shots. Going by file numbers or memory or some other cheat sheet means further record keeping but going from the clock can always be checked (it is right there in each screen shot).

[Hister]

I would go with: Turn 19

That's how Bil does it and it would be easier to keep track if it would be written so.

[A Canadian Cat]

I would go with: Turn 19

That's how Bil does it and it would be easier to keep track if it would be written so.

I wish Bill would put the time on his:)

Is that turn the file number? Or is it the real turn number - remember both players watch the movie of the same minute so two turn files actually represent the same turn.

[Alan8325]

Do you have a covered path to move the M10 to a better flank shot position, somewhere to the right of the ATG, against the Elefant?

[GreenAsJade]

I do, but Bil doesn't leave his armour in one place for long... (except, interestingly, the guys on Hill 130 ... he must feel really safe about them ... justifiably...). If the ATG is destroyed, then I will pretty much need to put an M10 over there...

[costard]

Thanks GAJ - I like the clock and the turn number, either/or both is great.

Best of luck with the Elefant hunting, though it looks to me as though you have a .303 Enfield when you need a double barrel .470 Rigby (or quad .50s for all that. Dunno that there'd be much ivory left...)

[Vinnart]

I vote go with the clock. It is the only thing you can just look at while you are watching and taking screen shots. Going by file numbers or memory or some other cheat sheet means further record keeping but going from the clock can always be checked (it is right there in each screen shot).

+ 1. The clock is what I would do for AAR presentation as it seems the easiest thing to remember chronologicaly as it is in the screen shot. I also like how it gives the viewer's reference he would get if he were playing himself keeping track of how much time is left in the game.

[Vinnart]

So, your gonna take the shot GaJ. Boldness can certainly pay off at times (along with a little luck), and it certainly makes for more drama for a cliff hanger. Will it hit? Will it not? Stay tuned all you Batfans out there to find out!

Good luck.

[GreenAsJade]

So, your gonna take the shot GaJ. Boldness can certainly pay off at times (along with a little luck), and it certainly makes for more drama for a cliff hanger. Will it hit? Will it not? Stay tuned all you Batfans out there to find out!

That is another important aspect, for sure ... the drama! Interestingly, I suspect that if this were not an AAR, but rather just a casual game, I might have held on, experimenting with the dice to see if I could hold out unspotted. But the outcome of that, if I get spotted, the likely case, is so boring that erring on the side of boldness, seemed the way to go in this case

And it seems Bil is adding to the drama, taking his time this turn! I had steeled myself to viewing a smoking wreck of a gun this morning ... but nothing. Is he licking his wounds (hah hah I wish) or plotting his terrible wrath on my revealed ATG...

edit: or both!?

GaJ

[dieseltaylor]

One thing that does cross my mind is how long/sparse is the grass in Italy.?

Is this generic grass for all of Europe?

And what time of year is this battle?

BTW this is the only thread on the battle I am reading so my questions are based soley on what is written here.

[Vanir Ausf B]

One thing that does cross my mind is how long/sparse is the grass in Italy.?

How long is a piece of string in Germany?

Grass terrain of different lengths is available in the editor. It's up to the map designer to decide what is appropriate.

[Hister]

Italy as a geographical area has all sorts of grass type, from very lush to semi arid. Grass in predominantly farming area around immidiate vicinity of settlements would not be left unattended. It would be either grazed by cattle or cut by farmers for hay. I don't know when peasants from that particular front area were deported away - the longer they would be away the longer the grass but it also depends on the time of the year fighting took place. Looking at old photos from the area I'm a bit surprised lush tall grass has been chosen by Bil - maybe just because of practical gaming results and not for flora correctness.

[Michael Emrys]

Looking at old photos from the area I'm a bit surprised lush tall grass has been chosen by Bil - maybe just because of practical gaming results and not for flora correctness.

He wanted to be able to sneak his KW recon guys unseen. Sneaky bastard.

Michael