I Hope This Is a Bug and Not a Dumb Design Decision

[Vanir Ausf B]

After seeing some odd results in a recent game I decided to once again waste my time running some tests and posting the results in a forum thread that BFC will probably never read. But at least people will know how the game works and doesn't work and adjust their tactics accordingly.

First the control group: 5 Sherman 75s firing at 5 Panther As at 300 meters. I recorded the hits and misses of the first 100 shots fired.

Hits: 94

Misses: 6

Now the test group: Same setup except the Shermans are given a movement order going straight forward plus an indefinite pause order so that they never actually move. First 100 shots fired:

Hits: 31

Misses: 69

Uh-oh. It appears that when the game determines if a vehicle should receive an accuracy penalty for firing while moving, whether or not the vehicle is actually in motion at the time is irrelevant. All that matters is if the vehicle presently has a movement order.

I also did test with just a pause command with no movement order and saw the same accuracy as in the control group, so it is definitely the movement order that determines this.

This has some obvious implications for anyone using Shoot 'n Scoot or Stop 'n Pop type tactics with their tanks. Hopefully BFC fixes this. Hopefully.

Save game and scenario files: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/4cs9xeyg66gvqbo/NHGeqLiQOO

[Vanir Ausf B]

........................

[SlowMotion]

Very interesting. I wonder if the same thing happens if a tank becomes immobilized during movement?

[Vanir Ausf B]

I would assume that it does if the tank is bogged since it retains the movement order. A tank that becomes permanently immobilized auto-cancels movement orders.

[Steiner14]

A very important observation! Tx for sharing.

[Vinnart]

Yes, good observation, and thanks for bringing this up as there is a big difference in the stats. If the tank is stopped it should not make any difference in accuracy regardless if a move order is given with the pause. I wonder how many "shoot and scoots" were misses simply because of this. I hope BF looks at this.

[slysniper]

Good catch, likely a design flaw.

But maybe not a issue for shoot and shoot - depends.

I like to move up into place and then have them shoot in one turn. So after they have moved, that order is completed and they should have good accuracy, they next turn I generally reverse them out of action immediately or maybe after one shot. So that shot might be affected by what you have found.

[Erwin]

Wow. Yes, makes a big difference to tactics. Thanks for spotting it.

[Lanzfeld]

Finding stuff like this really makes you lose confidence about what goes on under the hood.

[fatehunter]

After seeing some odd results in a recent game I decided to once again waste my time running some tests and posting the results in a forum thread that BFC will probably never read. But at least people will know how the game works and doesn't work and adjust their tactics accordingly.

First the control group: 5 Sherman 75s firing at 5 Panther As at 300 meters. I recorded the hits and misses of the first 100 shots fired.

Hits: 94

Misses: 6

Now the test group: Same setup except the Shermans are given a movement order going straight forward plus an indefinite pause order so that they never actually move. First 100 shots fired:

Hits: 31

Misses: 69

Uh-oh. It appears that when the game determines if a vehicle should receive an accuracy penalty for firing while moving, whether or not the vehicle is actually in motion at the time is irrelevant. All that matters is if the vehicle presently has a movement order.

I also did test with just a pause command with no movement order and saw the same accuracy as in the control group, so it is definitely the movement order that determines this.

This has some obvious implications for anyone using Shoot 'n Scoot or Stop 'n Pop type tactics with their tanks. Hopefully BFC fixes this. Hopefully.

Save game and scenario files: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/4cs9xeyg66gvqbo/NHGeqLiQOO

Vanir,

Big question here in that we need to isolate exactly when this happens and if it is only related to the indefinite pause command or if it is also with the timed pause command. Did you test it with a movement order and then a pause? I.E. if the tank has a movement order, then a 30 sec pause and then another movement order, does the firing that occurs during the 30 sec pause suffer the same consequence? i guess the way to test this would be to give a long times pause followed by a move command.

[fatehunter]

Finding stuff like this really makes you lose confidence about what goes on under the hood.

It's a game! The best one out there. Finding out that my audi has a cracked head and needed a new engine also made me lose confidence about what was under the hood of my audi. Still I continue to drive it with a new engine because frankly nothing else drives like it.

[Wodin]

It's a game! The best one out there. Finding out that my audi has a cracked head and needed a new engine also made me lose confidence about what was under the hood of my audi. Still I continue to drive it with a new engine because frankly nothing else drives like it.

Also these things get caught and fixed..nothing is perfect...just some things are more perfect than others.

[Amizaur]

I hope it's just a bug. Really not easy to notice one. Good that you caught it !

[Hister]

Vanir, devs don't follow posts made here - why don't you make a post in the tech forum? Will highten the chances of this being answered at least by them if not gotten fixed.

[poesel]

Vanir, devs don't follow posts made here - why don't you make a post in the tech forum? Will highten the chances of this being answered at least by them if not gotten fixed.

They do, but they don't reply every time. Best thing to do if you really think you found a bug is to raise a ticket in the helpdesk.

[Sgt Joch]

After seeing some odd results in a recent game I decided to once again waste my time running some tests and posting the results in a forum thread that BFC will probably never read. But at least people will know how the game works and doesn't work and adjust their tactics accordingly.

First the control group: 5 Sherman 75s firing at 5 Panther As at 300 meters. I recorded the hits and misses of the first 100 shots fired.

Hits: 94

Misses: 6

Now the test group: Same setup except the Shermans are given a movement order going straight forward plus an indefinite pause order so that they never actually move. First 100 shots fired:

Hits: 31

Misses: 69

Uh-oh. It appears that when the game determines if a vehicle should receive an accuracy penalty for firing while moving, whether or not the vehicle is actually in motion at the time is irrelevant. All that matters is if the vehicle presently has a movement order.

I also did test with just a pause command with no movement order and saw the same accuracy as in the control group, so it is definitely the movement order that determines this.

This has some obvious implications for anyone using Shoot 'n Scoot or Stop 'n Pop type tactics with their tanks. Hopefully BFC fixes this. Hopefully.

Save game and scenario files: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/4cs9xeyg66gvqbo/NHGeqLiQOO

So, basically you are arguing that a tank which stops briefly while on the move should, during the few seconds while it is stopped, be as accurate as a fully stationary tank.

That is based on what logic/facts?

[Chris69]

So, basically you are arguing that a tank which stops briefly while on the move should, during the few seconds while it is stopped, be as accurate as a fully stationary tank.

That is based on what logic/facts?

That is not at all what he is arguing. Key word here being an indefinite pause order. Which means that after a few rounds after stopping (if the tank was moving before, in the first place), accuracy should approach the control group's level, because the tank is not moving at all while firing those 100 rounds. He is not simulating shoot'n'scoot.

[Michael Emrys]

Best thing to do if you really think you found a bug is to raise a ticket in the helpdesk.

Or send an e-mail to Phil or one of the beta testers with an attached file showing the behavior in question.

Michael

[Holien]

Finding stuff like this really makes you lose confidence about what goes on under the hood.

LOL...

You do realise what they (the Devs) are trying to do, is simulate real world life (battles) on a PC.

From my POV that is no small feat, but I guess I have lower expectations than you?

A good find and it is only through these sorts of tests do you find unexpected glitches that may or may not be fixable...

[Lanzfeld]

Yeah I guess that phrase came out sorta wrong. I know what they are doing is not easy (I beta test). I guess I just had one of those "throw your hands in the air, not another one!" moments.

Onward and upwards.

[Guest]

Yes, I'm reading this. I read it last night but forgot to reply. It looks like a bug to me. I've sent it along to the appropriate folks.

[Hister]

Yes, I'm reading this. I read it last night but forgot to reply. It looks like a bug to me. I've sent it along to the appropriate folks.

Yeeeey, we love you Phil you know that right!?

Not sure if you know but there are still some remaining bugs with some of the tanks.

[Vanir Ausf B]

So, basically you are arguing that a tank which stops briefly while on the move should, during the few seconds while it is stopped, be as accurate as a fully stationary tank.

That is based on what logic/facts?

Try reading before replying next time.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Yes, I'm reading this. I read it last night but forgot to reply. It looks like a bug to me. I've sent it along to the appropriate folks.

Thanks, Phil

[Sgt Joch]

That is not at all what he is arguing. Key word here being an indefinite pause order. Which means that after a few rounds after stopping (if the tank was moving before, in the first place), accuracy should approach the control group's level, because the tank is not moving at all while firing those 100 rounds. He is not simulating shoot'n'scoot.

understood, but when would anyone use a move order + indefinite pause in a 60 second turn?

Phil will send it along, but my understanding is tank fire on the move is more accurate than it should be. Steve has mentioned changes they would like to make, i.e. "short halts" to improve behavior of tank fire on the move, but that would require more important changes to the TacAI. We may possibly see this in v3.

In the meantime, tanks on the move have an accuracy penalty as Vanir's tests show. Pauses are used in movement, not just voluntary pauses by a player, but involuntary pauses as vehicles pause to let other vehicles go by. Right now moving tanks have an accuracy penalty during the entire time they are moving, including pauses.

If player's feel that tank accuracy on the move is too low, we can of course, press BFC to remove the accuracy penalty during pauses.