$Pec5 Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Most of the front turret area on the Panther is covered by the gun mantlet which is rounded and therefore gives variable protection depending on what part is struck. As mentioned previously, at 200-300 meters or less you can penetrate it reliably with US 76mm, but by 500 meters it becomes more of a gamble. The lower front hull can also be penetrated by US 76mm, but at what range varies with different models of Panther. In both cases M10 late HVAP ammo makes these two areas more reliably penetrated and at longer ranges, but does nothing against the glacis plate. The Panther glacis plate, i.e. the "Upper Front Hull" can normally only be penetrated by the British 17 pdr gun, and even then only when using APDS ammunition. Lower quality armor sometimes seen on D model Panthers may allow penetration by "regular" 17 pdr ammunition. It was my understanding, however, that the turret of the panther was relatively small in comparisson to the hull. This, combined with the center of mass aiming system, makes turret shots a whole lot less likely than a hull shot, Correct? Also, am I understanding this correctly: Because of the center of mass aiming system, a panther will more reliably be struck in the hull by a tank the closer it is to the panther. This means that decreasing the distance between your tank and a panther will result in a higher likelihood of hull shots and reduce, thus reducing the likelihood of penetrating the panther? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 I believe (something I read long ago) in real life U.S. tank destroyers enjoyed something on the order of a 10-1 kill advantage, or some other freakishly high number. U.S. Sherman commanders may have been little more than cannon fodder, TD commanders were highly trained, highly motivated, and steeped in tactics. If your M-10 isn't penetrating a Panther bow at close range maybe the problem is that you're trying to penetrate a Panther bow! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 It was my understanding, however, that the turret of the panther was relatively small in comparisson to the hull. This, combined with the center of mass aiming system, makes turret shots a whole lot less likely than a hull shot, Correct? Yep! Also, am I understanding this correctly: Because of the center of mass aiming system, a panther will more reliably be struck in the hull by a tank the closer it is to the panther. This means that decreasing the distance between your tank and a panther will result in a higher likelihood of hull shots and reduce, thus reducing the likelihood of penetrating the panther? That is probably true to some extent, but I have never specifically tested it so I can't say for sure. But I have confirmed that longer ranges result in more hits on the outside edges of the turret of a hull down Tiger, so it stands to reason the same principle would be seen for the hull if it were not hull down. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 If your M-10 isn't penetrating a Panther bow at close range maybe the problem is that you're trying to penetrate a Panther bow! In Soviet Union, Panther bow penetrate you! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkelried Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Hey, I wasn't "parking" my men there lol. Only the two Shermans were supposed to be sitting there to watch the road. The men were crossing paths on the way to their respective routes when they all got caught in the nasty ka-boom when i have such potential avenues for AT fire, i put a scout team (or even better a HQ) at my end (best with scopes) and then try to provoke the AT to fire (at the beginning of your video you see the icon of the ATG so it probably just fired). Then pop/fire smoke or even better call mortars/arty to zap the ATG. doesn't work all the time, but most of the time. Yes, I'm definitely taking a shot with the M10, then scooting back out of sight. Rinse and repeat. Working pretty well so far. Or, I try to keep hull down, but I find that difficult to do reliably. One rule out of RL is to never pop up at the same spot twice :-) run a see-saw pattern is the optimum. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkelried Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 I believe (something I read long ago) in real life U.S. tank destroyers enjoyed something on the order of a 10-1 kill advantage, or some other freakishly high number. U.S. Sherman commanders may have been little more than cannon fodder, TD commanders were highly trained, highly motivated, and steeped in tactics. If your M-10 isn't penetrating a Panther bow at close range maybe the problem is that you're trying to penetrate a Panther bow! And armored TD units were structured a bit differently than medium tank batallions. The TD batallion had a full recon company (almost like a cavalry troop) and in addition each platoon had two recon elements (plt leader and hq support team in CMBN). so the armored TD rarely entered battle without having "eyes" in the combat zone. therefore they could achieve local fire superiority and surprise by popping up in a coordinated manner at the right moment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnart Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 In my very first PBEM the first tank I took out was a Panther with 76mm Sherman. It was a tense turn as the first 3 rounds bounced off with the last shot penetrating. From the angle it looked like it ricocheted up under the turret if that is possible. I was in a good hull down within 200m, and at about 25 degree angle to the Panther’s front. We were on opposite hills with my tank slightly higher. Luckily the first shot seemed to daze it as it never acquired my Sherman with no return fire. The Panther is tough no doubt, but not invincible. My favorite match for it in Cmx1 was Hellcats. I hope they make an appearance soon. The Hellcat is my favorite as Allied. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 From the angle it looked like it ricocheted up under the turret if that is possible. The Panther models D and A have shot traps. Rounds striking the lower part of the curved gun mantlet can ricochet downward into the thin deck armor. The G model has a "chin" added beneath the mantlet to eliminate the shot trap. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdeaL Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 You know if the Panther had a lower silhouette or even if at least the turret wasn't as high(maybe impossible) it would make an awesome TD with turret. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkelried Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 You know if the Panther had a lower silhouette or even if at least the turret wasn't as high(maybe impossible) it would make an awesome TD with turret. Conceptually the Panther was one of the first truly modern tanks by combining adequate protection, mobility and an effective gun. Despite its flaws its design influenced quite a few post-war tanks. IMHO it is the archetype of the main battle tank as the heavy tanks "died out" in the 1950s. The Germans designed a successor for the turret the so called "Schmalturm" (lit. narrow turret) for the planned Ausf. F - this turret was as high as the original one, but did away with some of the weaknesses. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdeaL Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Oh wow, i didnt know about the Ausf. F versions. Thanks for the info. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnart Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Yes, I must have hit that lucky sweet spot "trap" just when I needed it. I'm sure it was a "D" model. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobo Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 If you have an AFV staring at the front of a Panther, it's time for you to move your AFV. I was thinking the same thing. Reverse! Reverse! Get a side shot! Bobo 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 I am one as far as the game is concerned, will even take on a panther from the front with 75's, given I have 3 or 4 that I can bear on it. I still feel given about a 1/2 dozen hits on it before it kills all your units will likely give it a damaged gun and make it worthless. I have seen that play out so much I question if its a game design flaw. But other discussions make it a question as to what % of a chance should that happen anyway. But in the game at present, it is a option if you have no other better choices. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Gun damage does seem to happen too often, but that is just a feeling with no hard data to prove if that is truly the case. I know when I play Germans I am wary of being in sight of too many targets even if I have the Armour advantage... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Gun damage does seem to happen too often, but that is just a feeling with no hard data to prove if that is truly the case. I know when I play Germans I am wary of being in sight of too many targets even if I have the Armour advantage... Amen to that, I have learned this the hard way myself, but I have used it on the enemy and have had the same results. No, I have not done any real testing on it, but I did do some and I was amazed how many times I lost the gun after receiving approx. 6 hits on my heavy cats. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Steppenwulf Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 We were on opposite hills with my tank slightly higher. Key-point: With 55 degree slope on the Panther's glacis plate, that gives 80mm of armour the equivalent stopping power of approx 180mm. An elevated position will negate that angle proportionately and thus decrease the slope effect. Perhaps a lucky shot was actually the critical factor in this case but still... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdeaL Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Two things that ALWAYS happens in CMBN for me is, Guns gets destroyed no matter what hits it (today stuart at 600m hits jadgpanther gun disabled) and the other thing is i always lose the leaders of squads before ANY other member gets hit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
$Pec5 Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 I would be interested to find out gun damage statistics. Also, does anyone seem to think that the v2.01 upgrade made AFV commanders less suceptible to death by small arms fire? I've noticed a welcome change in the number of AFV commanders I've been losing since upgrading, but I don't know if it is attributable to tweaks in the game or tweaks in my play. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipanderson Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Hi, Yes, the Panther’s glacis plate of 80mm at 55 degrees is massively heavy protection by WWII standards. It gives a horizontal thickness of 140mm. To which you have to add an extra, additional slope effect over and above the horizontal thickness of about 15% or more. Net result, Panther’s glacis plate has an equivalent, horizontal protection of over 160mm. We are talking 17 pounder at under 500m or Soviet 100mm or 122mm guns at under 1000mm. Even then the firer has to be having a “good day....” . Note... the thinness of the side amour of the Panther, and less heavy turret, means it’s far from immune to the three guns mentioned above. Even a glancing blow from any of the three guns can peal open the Panther’s side. All the best, Kip. PS. Just note others have posted similar.... just shows there are many unhinged nerds here... glad am not the only one... . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Two things that ALWAYS happens in CMBN for me is, Guns gets destroyed no matter what hits it (today stuart at 600m hits jadgpanther gun disabled) and the other thing is i always lose the leaders of squads before ANY other member gets hit. I'm curious about the leader-hit-first effect, as well. I suggest 100 tests using 10 man squads facing embedded machineguns (or tanks firing coax mg's only.) Have each squad facing its mg in a separate lane. The Leader will be the front man. He is LEADING. (See USMC 2LT casualty statistics.) Quick the squads at the mg's. Note the % of 1st casualties. The Leader casualties should be 10% (1/10 of the squad), all else being equal. It is not. Next, split the squads. Do whatever you need to do to get the leader out of the unit. You may be left with 6-8 of the original members. Repeat the test with the reduced squads. Does the FRONT man take the same % hits that the Leader took? I'm curious. Anyone? Edited to add an on-topic post: When the Tigers were introduced on the East Front, they were famous for shrugging off massive numbers of hits. Obviously, the Germans had mostly PzIII's and the few PzIV's to compare to the Tigers' perfomance. Equally, the Soviets had a few poor 76mm guns (mostly), with poor ammo, with a liberal dosing of 45mm guns and lots of anti-tank rifles. Even with weapons incapable of penetrating any of the Tiger's armor, many Tigers were put of action due to secondary damage. Many TC's were wounded due to shattered cupola vision blocks; tracks were shot off (or running gear otherwise rendered inop); main guns "jammed" and stopped working; radios were knocked out; external smoke dischargers caught fire and blinded the tank and debilitated the crews; other crewmen were injured by various mechanisms; etc. It was "invulnerable", yet many were rendered combat incapable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Key-point: With 55 degree slope on the Panther's glacis plate, that gives 80mm of armour the equivalent stopping power of approx 180mm. An elevated position will negate that angle proportionately and thus decrease the slope effect. Perhaps a lucky shot was actually the critical factor in this case but still... Hi, Yes, the Panther’s glacis plate of 80mm at 55 degrees is massively heavy protection by WWII standards. It gives a horizontal thickness of 140mm. To which you have to add an extra, additional slope effect over and above the horizontal thickness of about 15% or more. Net result, Panther’s glacis plate has an equivalent, horizontal protection of over 160mm. We are talking 17 pounder at under 500m or Soviet 100mm or 122mm guns at under 1000mm. Even then the firer has to be having a “good day....” . Panther glacis is equivalent to about 202 - 205mm @ 0° versus 76mm APCBC (I got 202mm when I calculated it but Rexford's book lists 205 *shrug*). 17 pdr APCBC penetrates 174mm @ 100 meters vs. RHA and 187mm @ 100 meters vs. FHA. This assumes 80mm thick armor. Actual plates have been measured to vary up to 85mm. Flawed plate on late models could reduce resistance, maybe by as much as 15%. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Steppenwulf Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 Panther glacis is equivalent to about 202 - 205mm @ 0° versus 76mm APCBC (I got 202mm when I calculated it but Rexford's book lists 205 *shrug*). 17 pdr APCBC penetrates 174mm @ 100 meters vs. RHA and 187mm @ 100 meters vs. FHA. This assumes 80mm thick armor. Actual plates have been measured to vary up to 85mm. Flawed plate on late models could reduce resistance, maybe by as much as 15%. Yes, claims about the slope effect on the Panther vary widely and I won't question any of them only to say that there are as many claims as there are books, articles & documentaries. What we can say with any certainty is that the slope armour adds to protection from penetration to such an extent that it becomes the critical factor. What is frequently overlooked however is that the slope effect can be negated by a shell fired from an elevated position and also that that negation factor would increase out to an optimal range, due to trajectory. I've also considered, though I have never read it anywhere, that the standard defensive tactic of positioning AT guns at short range on reverse slopes would have discovered to have been self-defeating against the T34 in the east due to the undesired effect of actually increasing the effect of sloped plate. Tactical reconsiderations must have been undertaken partly as a consequence of this issue and certainly it's true that the Germans started to use the FLAK 88's in an AT gun role and at distance to defeat the T34 at this exact point in time. Finally, as Vanir hinted, the comparatively superior quality steel used on the earlier German tanks, including the earlier Panthers, is no doubt another reason why penetrating a front facing Mk V with most contemporary AT guns was such a very big ask without AT knowledge & experience or otherwise just a dash of good fortune. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 ...that negation factor would increase out to an optimal range, due to trajectory... People tend to overestimate the difference the trajectory makes in the angle of incidence. It's in the order of half to 1 degree for high velocity rounds, and rounds aren't very (usefully) accurate at ranges where the angle gets over a degree. Elevation effects and lateral angles are much more significant changers-of-angle of incidence. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 Key-point: With 55 degree slope on the Panther's glacis plate, that gives 80mm of armour the equivalent stopping power of approx 180mm. That math doesn't work for kinetic energy rounds, at least not until subcaliber depleted uranium rounds. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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