Bersaglieri Helmet and Modding Future

[Mord]

Don't know if you guy's noticed but the Bersaglieri guys have that feathery looking thing sticking off their helmets. That is a first. We've never had any models in CM's history that had stuff sticking off the helmets. That bodes well for the future of having 3d pieces of camo that can attach directly onto the helmet instead of being painted on. Makes way for the possibility of leaves and such, plus the whatchyacallit strips the airborne guys use. Just thought that was cool.

Mord.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Ooooh, shiny. Can't wait to see what else is possible with that.

[mjkerner]

Mord, there might be a problem. Those feathers have to be part of the 3D model, so you can't move it around on the helmet to get the camo effects. The British para helmets had a little cloth strip sticking out just a bit IIRC, and when copied and posted to another area, it just looked painted on. Or am I missing something?

[Erwin]

Did they actually keep the feathers in combat, as opposed to when they were REMF's?

Humans' odd desire to stay alive usually leads to all colorful bits that could be easily seen by shooters being removed or at least dirtied down to virtual invisibility.

[Mord]

Mord, there might be a problem. Those feathers have to be part of the 3D model, so you can't move it around on the helmet to get the camo effects. The British para helmets had a little cloth strip sticking out just a bit IIRC, and when copied and posted to another area, it just looked painted on. Or am I missing something?

Yeah, you misunderstood me. I am not talking about using them for creating camo now. I am talking about in the future BFC could theoretically give us slots on helmets that could be modded...that this could be a doorway to other possibilities in later titles/modules/packs. As far as the para helmets I haven't seen anything that might suggest a 3D effect the cloth looks to be painted onto the BMP. It might be a trick of the eye.

@Erwin, hard to say. A few pics I found look like they could've been worn in actual combat. I'd rather have them in then not have them, though. An alpha layer could probably remove them to create no feathers or random distribution.

Mord.

[Amedeo]

Did they actually keep the feathers in combat, as opposed to when they were REMF's?

Yes, they did keep the feathers in combat, as they always did, and as they still do nowdays in Afghanistan.

[Mord]

Yes, they did keep the feathers in combat, as they always did, and as they still do nowdays in Afghanistan.

One of the pics I found showed some of the guys walking (in what looked like a patrol) in the desert, with the feathers on their helmets. I had assumed it was A-Stan. Thanks for the clarification.

Mord.

[JonS]

Humans' odd desire to stay alive usually leads to all colorful bits that could be easily seen by shooters being removed or at least dirtied down to virtual invisibility.

I'm pretty sure the feathers are black, so there isn't a lot of colour to be removed or dirtied.

[Nicdain]

I'm pretty sure the feathers are black, so there isn't a lot of colour to be removed or dirtied.

The feathers that make the so called "Piumetto" are black because they belong to a particular rooster, the capercaillie

[Fernando]

One of the pics I found showed some of the guys walking (in what looked like a patrol) in the desert, with the feathers on their helmets. I had assumed it was A-Stan. Thanks for the clarification.

Make a google search for images with the words "Bersaglieri nel deserto". You would find lots of them.

[Mord]

Cool. Thanks.

Mord.

[Erwin]

I checked the link and did some other google searches and found a lot of Italian text and "paintings/drawings" of Bersagliosi in heroic poses with their feathers.

But, the few unstaged looking WW2 photos of what appeared to be actual combat troops didn't seem to show them with feathers. Do you have a photo gallery link of WW2 Italian combat troops?

Don't get me wrong... I think it would be wonderful if WW2 troops did go into battle dressed up like it was the 19th century, but I can't find the evidence.

[JonS]

Not all Italian troops were Bersaglieri, but only the Bersags had the feathers.

[akd]

Quick search revealed many "action" and "field" photos from Africa to Afghanistan. Of course, very few action photos are actual combat. This however, does appear to be a combat photo:

[joeroma]

Quick search revealed many "action" and "field" photos from Africa to Afghanistan. Of course, very few action photos are actual combat. This however, does appear to be a combat photo:

The previous picture was actually taken during the attack on the monastery hill in Greece.

The piumetto was applied to the helmet, and was Gallo Cedrone though once there were two differences: the officers had the reflex blue, while the troops were green.

Even for the Alpine applied ,and still applies, black pen.

in the image below is my cappello when I was officer with black pen.

Bersaglieri troops also were not elite, but they arise as light infantry and motorized infantry later.

would also be interesting to see in the game also FEZ

The fez was used very little in combat but was only supplied to the troops.

The fez was a type of cap given by the French Zouaves sharpshooters during the Crimean War in honor of the bravery to bersaglieri.after became a hat used mainly in barracks or services not operating.

but it would be nice to see him in the game!

also had the Blackshirts but Fez was black

http://home.comcast.net/~babela29/fez.html

[Amedeo]

But, the few unstaged looking WW2 photos of what appeared to be actual combat troops didn't seem to show them with feathers.

Probably because the photos you are referring to don't depict Bersaglieri.

Don't get me wrong... I think it would be wonderful if WW2 troops did go into battle dressed up like it was the 19th century, but I can't find the evidence.

I'm puzzled. Even a quick search with Google using random keywords (e.g. bersaglieri africa) gives a lot of pictures of front line bersaglieri troopers wearing feathers.

The same applies to YouTube searches: e.g.

http://youtu.be/7B7d117vX5E

from 4:50 on, there are some bersaglieri filmed in combat.

I presume you think you found contradictory evidence, because you're assuming that every photo depicting Italian soldiers should show bersaglieri.

The only period in the whole history of the corps of the Bersaglieri in which they didn't fight with the feathers their headdress was between the end of 1915 and the beginning of 1917. The bersaglieri entered WW1 with their traditional black cap with feathers (still used today in dress uniform). The feathers were removed in december 1915 for visilibility issues and the hat was retired in 1916 for the new steel helmets. In 1917 the feathers came back on the combat helmet and regulations still provide for the use of piumetto (feathers drop) on the helmet in combat. Actually, enlisted troops used (and use) two version of piumetto, a 100-feathers one for the full dress hat and a smaller 80-feathers one for combat dress. Some officers use, larger, non-regulation, versions of piumetto on their parade hats (up to 500 feathers!).

Bersaglieri troops also were not elite, but they arise as light infantry and motorized infantry later.

I beg to differ. Bersaglieri were élite troops, as were élite troops all rifle-armed light infantry units in mid-XIX century european armies. And, I think, the same applies also in later periods. I doubt that in the Regio Esercito of WW2 the average line infantry unit could stand on par with bersaglieri, alpini, paracadutisti or carabinieri.

would also be interesting to see in the game also FEZ

As you said, bersaglieri didn't use the fez in combat so I presume we, rightly, won't see them in CMFI. Anyway, we're lucky enough this time BFC finally bothered modelling feathers... in CMBB and CMAK, alpini and bersaglieri with bare helmets were not a pretty sight!

[joeroma]

When you were conceived, the Bersaglieri were born as elite troops, like the tiragliatori,volteggiatori , Jager ecc. ,but later took on the role of troops "celeri", it is no coincidence that the various bersaglieri regiments were placed in so-called divisions Celeri.

the paratroopers they cost 45 times what it cost the training of a line unit.

therefore agree that the paratroopers were an elite or Alpine, but not very much agree on bersaglieri.

regarding the carabinieri, were and remain, military police, so do not think they get well in the context of the argument.

However, you are right about the rest, we can finally see the piumetto in the game.

regards

[Amedeo]

When you were conceived, the Bersaglieri were born as elite troops, like the tiragliatori,volteggiatori , Jager ecc. ,but later took on the role of troops "celeri", it is no coincidence that the various bersaglieri regiments were placed in so-called divisions Celeri.

Exactly, it's no coincidence that they (and not some line infantry regiments) assumed the role of mobile infantry for the divisioni corazzate and divisioni celeri.

the paratroopers they cost 45 times what it cost the training of a line unit.

therefore agree that the paratroopers were an elite or Alpine, but not very much agree on bersaglieri.

Perhaps today (with a professional army and a high proportion of bersaglieri with respect to the infantry totals) bersaglieri are not that much different from ordinary mech infantry, but I'm positive that for equipement, organization, fitness and esprit de corps they were way better than line infantry in WW2.

BTW I'm surprised that, given the quote in your signature, you think that bersaglieri unit weren't better than average line infantry.

regarding the carabinieri, were and remain, military police, so do not think they get well in the context of the argument.

Of course I'm referring to battaglioni mobilitati, carabinieri paracadutisti and other units that had front line duties, not the average MP company.

However, you are right about the rest, we can finally see the piumetto in the game.

regards

I hope the game will correctly model the peculiarities of Italian equipement. BTW, now that CMx2 is able to model HESH ammo, perhaps we will see effetto pronto shells for Italian guns.

Regards

[sburke]

wow this is too cool, I am going to learn far more than I ever expected about the history of the Italian army as this game approaches release.

Seriously thanks guys, I love this sort of stuff. Was just in Italy a few weeks back, but not much opportunity to check out learning stuff like this. Sad part is I was in a hotel a block from the Museo Storico dei Bersaglieri and didn't get a chance to go. Still kicking myself.

[akd]

I hope the game will correctly model the peculiarities of Italian equipement. BTW, now that CMx2 is able to model HESH ammo, perhaps we will see effetto pronto shells for Italian guns.

Regards

EP and EPS were HE shells converted to hollow-charge shells (the former base-fuzed, the latter nose fuzed), were they not? But yes, the Italians have HEAT.

[Amedeo]

EP and EPS were HE shells converted to hollow-charge shells, and yes, the Italians have HEAT.

The EPS was a true and functional HEAT round but EP ammo had base fuzes without nose initiators and was more a sort of HESH. Now, it would be interesting to know whether in summer 1943 EPS ammo was in widespread use or were EP rounds still common...

[akd]

I don't think E.P. was any sort of HESH (also called HEP for "High Explosive, Plastic") as it did not utilize plastic explosives. I suspect it was just a very inefficient shaped-charge design.

[LongLeftFlank]

NY Times editor Arthur Sulzberger's memoir "A Long Row of Candles"'grimly relates the aftermath of an unsuccessful Bersaglieri attack, with the wind blowing feathers into the Greek positions.

[John Kettler]

Bersaglieri and motorcycles (at Tobruk). What could be better? http://www.qattara.it/bersaglieri_files/bersaglieri1.jpg

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

The answer, this site, which features some great pics (probably great info if you can read Itaian, and a first class shot of the Bersaglieri uniform to include the infamous Red Devil grenades.

http://www.qattara.it/60-131-bersaglieri.html

Regards,

John Kettler