Sorry Battlefront

[noob]

But ... improvising a path is navigating the allocated path! That's the very essence of navigation - "how do I get from A to B?"

That's true for peace time, but in a battle it's, "how do i get from A to B without getting my head blown off" which the navigation system cannot deal with, which was the reason for the thread in the first place

[Sailor Malan2]

I have not seen any problems with paths in CMBN. It must be a personal play style issue. As has been said: use waypoints, waypoints are your friend. Assume the driver is a reluctant ex-butcher's boy, who left school at 14 and was conscripted into a war. Oh wait...

In the 'climbs the bank' example earlier, I would bet that the path plotted (once the error on rounding the corner is allowed for - i.e. the overshoot of the last corner waypoint due to the speed) asked the vehicle to ...'climb the bank'! if it is critical, then only plot to the corner, then pick it up again next turn. Or put extra points in just after to recentre it on the road.

Path tracing on a CM map is difficult to code... if you dont believe me, try writing the rules for it yourself (and no high level 'find the gap' type phrasing!). I once started doing something similar to point out to a Naval game publisher how easy it was to write a formation keeping logic... gave up after an hour when I discovered how much more complex it needed to be than I had assumed...

Oh, and as ever, all these 'should have fixed this' complaints never recognise that something else would not have happened if they had been working on the pet peeve... fixed hours in day and coders/designers.

[c3k]

I agree with the OP that sometimes vehicle pathing produces bad results. BUT, the vast majority of times it works very well. Yes, some micromanaging is needed.

Let's take the truck on the road example from upstream. The poster complained that the truck mistakenly drove on the raised bank instead of the road.

Solution: let the AI "tweak" how you interpret what you plot. Okay, next game you have a road which the enemy can fire upon. You plot your vehicle to parallel the road, but not to use it. Well, if the AI gets to interpret your orders, it'd figure that you "meant" to use the road. Now your truck goes and gets shot up. Bad.

Solution: the AI must never deviate from what you plot. Do I really need to give an example of how bad a solution that would be?

Right now it works pretty well. I'd like to see the OP's plotted movement path as well has his replay. He may not like how to plot orders, but I'm willing to bet that "proper" plotting would've avoided what he had happen.

Any savegames?

Ken

[JonS]

I disagree with that premise, and especially this bit:

"how do i get from A to B without getting my head blown off"

is wrong headed. Getting the guys from A to B is your responsibility, as player/commander. That pretty much is the game, and the ability to do it well is what separates better players from the rest.

[kipanderson]

Hi,

I have been playing CMBN a lot recently and have noticed no problems.

I do as a matter of routine but quite a few waypoints in where a path is needed say round a burnt-out truck down a lane. When you are accustomed to helping the path finding it’s no trouble at all.

Good luck,

All the best,

Kip.

[Baneman]

Has anyone noticed that sometimes a movement plot shows the green "you can move here" arrow, but the vehicle will not go there ?

I've seen it with vehicles and once with infantry ( I wanted to know if they could wade a river - the movement command showed green for every pixel of river, so I assumed they could cross, but when they reached the water, they balked ).

I'm probably missing something to do with how you really tell if something is impassable or not - any ideas ?

[noob]

I disagree with that premise, and especially this bit:

is wrong headed. Getting the guys from A to B is your responsibility, as player/commander. That pretty much is the game, and the ability to do it well is what separates better players from the rest.

After reading this and other replies i agree with the above, it happens so rarely that when it does you just have to accept it and learn a painful lesson, or as i said in a previous post, if in doubt simulate the path on an empty version of your game map.

[LongLeftFlank]

Or perhaps with less than elite/veteran drivers buttoned up in the heat of battle these kinds of hijinx aren't as unrealistic as you all assume. Check out these Keystone Kops bumper-BMP moves by the Syrian army....

This cameraman has some stones, sitting in front of 3 actively shooting BMP using a very strange form of shoot and scoot (turn your ass to the enemy? -- maybe CMSF pathing isn't so wrong after all). They finally notice him at the very end of the clip....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLB93R3ZRl4

[dpabrams]

Or perhaps with less than elite/veteran drivers buttoned up in the heat of battle these kinds of hijinx aren't as unrealistic as you all assume. Check out these Keystone Kops bumper-BMP moves by the Syrian army....

Clutch popping, burn outs and parallel parking that is elite Syrian driving at lts best.

[black_prince]

TBH, I think the pathing is actually pretty good. In fact there's only one incident I recall where a vehicle went the long way round when i ordered it through a gap in the bocage. It turned out to be my fault-the gap was actually dense wood tile, impassible to vehicles. Here's a few tips on how to avoid your vehicles wandering around the map in unintended ways.

1 Mind the Gap

When ordering a vehicle through a gap ensure that:

a. The gap is sufficiently wide.

b. The terrain tile is passable

c. You plot your path directly through the gap.

2 Turning

Try to avoid giving plotting sharp turns. Wherever possible, plot a series of gradual turns in a circular fashion. Sometimes, reversing your vehicle first so that it has more space to turn helps. If you do have to give your vehicle a sharp turn be sure to use the move or slow command.

3 Avoiding traffic jams

Traffic jams and 'after you' situations are quite easy to avoid by using short pauses and/or varying the movment commands given to your vehicles.

I have to say that I completely agree with JonS' post above. The last thing I want my units to be doing is constantly second guessing my commands. There is room for the Tac AI to improve but as far as I'm concerned, micro-management is an integral-and very enjoyable-part of the game. I actually enjoy plotting movement paths for vehicles. If playing in WEGO there is plenty of time to plot your commands and get them right. If playing RT, you have the opportunity of correctting the paths of any vehicles which are not moving in the way you anticipated.

[Bradley]

Pathfinding has been right on in my lengthy playing time with CMBN. My only frustration is when I give an order (in haste) waypoints that are out of whack or asking my tank to go over a hedge that is too large and therefore the tank must turn in place and go around to achieve the order I have given, leaving my flank open to attack. But that is my mistake for giving a lousy path to begin with. Unless a vehicle takes a hit or a morale hit, it will go just as you instruct it to.

[LongLeftFlank]

Clutch popping, burn outs and parallel parking that is elite Syrian driving at lts best.

Sunday! Sunday! Sunday!

[Hessian deserter]

Well the vehicles require some management. Waypoints have to be chosen wisely, watch your speed when turning and know if your vehicle can corner worth a darn. Avoid making turns around objects. When doing a 180 degree facing change it is best to "change facing" before proceeding in the opposite direction. Giving a vehicle facing north a movement command to travel straight south will be disasterous for example. The vehicle will pivot in a circle and it can get ugly. Time your routes when in "convoy" movement so vehicles don't bunch, use the pause command and allow at least 5 seconds between vehicles. Routes need to be specific and use many waypoints. Simply picking a couple of waypoints to cover 500 meters will lead to disaster as the vehicles struggle to pick the corrrect route. Practice.

Thanks for these tips....I had not been giving my units facing orders before movement orders. I can see where this would save a great deal of time especially when playing in wego mode:)

[mjkerner]

Sunday! Sunday! Sunday!

Grow up near Chicago...US 30 Drag Strip?:

All the workarounds are good for handling a few vehicles in a battle, but the one thing that is still diffulct is to get a convoy to trundle across a map in a reasonable manner, because of different vehicle speeds for the same movement type, and occasional wierd pathing when vehicles decide to move along the side of a road instead of on it, and especially if there are any turns, but even on a straight stretch of road. That'll be a problem setting up an ambush along the corridor in Holland. not impossible, but time-consuming. I imagine coding a column movement order is a nightmare or we would probably have seen it already.

[MengJiaoRedux]

Absolutely - I think the pathfinding is really good now. The only thing I always do is plat two or three angled way points when I want it to make a turn. Not only does it make it work better but if you do it correctly the vehicle doesnt lose speed.

Really - I think this guy picked one bad example and flogged the whole game for it. Really I just dont get that attitude.

Honestly - 99 times out of a hundred when I plot movement - vehicles pretty much do what I want them to. I dont get the complaining. The only point I see the plotting really struggle is when traffic jams build up. that really the point you need to be careful.

I've found the path-finding to be pretty miraculous. I look at a maze of bocage and give the orders to a mass of vehicles to go 600 meters (without checking) and they generally get there eventually one way or another.

I do have to clear up traffic jams, but you can use those to shift priorities by backing out all the trucks and letting the tanks through (for example).

[slysniper]

I am not all that sure pathing has improved much in the coding, I am sure some, But i think more has improved in how I give commands. So in general i have no issues with the unit. That is of course untoil the AI kicks in, which is in General, when the unit is under fire. At that point , who knows for sure what it will do, exspecially in wego where there is time to get itself in trouble.

Is it perfect, no. But I see most of the time the AI is good at moving units back or to cover, sometimes not. But to tell you the truth. It is a little like real life, bull, if you think your men would always make the correct choice. When someone comes under fire, they will make a decision normally with in a few seconds at the most, sometimes that is not the correct choice, thus moving into a worse situation. So for the game to do that at times should not be that heartbreaking. Sometimes it looks realistic, sometimes it just looks like a game that has no real intelligence and it would likely never happen in real life.

I guess if you cannot stand it, only play real time all the time and likely with yourself, since that is how picky you are. I hope they continue to improve it, but I do not exspect AI to get it right all the time, but I dont mind seeing it try to save iunits at times. It is just like flipping a coin as to if it will work.

[snake_eye]

I have rarely noticed strange pathway behaviour of vehicles and or tanks in B-N. However, when their crew are panicked they do move in a direction which is not the best. That is if they want to survive. Usually it ends up by a straight shot into the vehicle and or tank within a short time. During that time you are unable to interfere with the driver foolish driving. Depending on its state of fear, you can not give any order and if you can, it takes over immediately again, like if it was in a hurry to get the hell out of there. If only it could go the right way!

So, for me strange pathways behaviour are mostly related with the crew condition. They simply won’t follow what has been set once they get panicky.

The same happens in real battle situation. Nothing abnormal

[Childress]

I have rarely noticed strange pathway behaviour of vehicles and or tanks in B-N. However, when their crew are panicked they do move in a direction which is not the best.

Well, they're panicking, mon vieux.

[bodkin]

I've seen crews pop smoke and drive with their arse towards the enemy or run over minefields and they are not panicked. The basic evasion manouvering could be improved.

[snake_eye]

Well, they're panicking, mon vieux.

That's right

[simmox]

after racking maybe 100 games so far

my opinion is the tac Ai is poor at best,when it comes to tanks and their pathing

i consistantly get suicidal behaviour with sherman crews when faced with cats

i try and use my tanks in hunting pairs when i have enough of them

and frankly,i am sick of their crazy behaviour when engaging the enemy armour

you work hard to get a reasonable advantage and most times they just dont behave when it comes to crunch time

when they arent reversing into each other or turning in circles,or trying to drive through a building

they reverse directly away from the threat,knowing full well their gonna cop a death blow.(i can accept this one)

i just finished mission 3 in the scot corridor

i had 2 shermans circling a tiger at around 30 meters, using a move order on one and quick on the other

i knew it would be easy as the tiger couldnt turn its turret quick enough to track one.until the shermans decided to panic and completely disregard the plotted paths,stopping and reversing away from the non threat,until it actually became one,and both were destroyed due to idiocy

very frustrating and i just cant accept it

my last pbem game,i had all three of my shermans on overwatch looking down a road, they then decide to face 90o to the right for no apparent reason,i think this one may have been a map bug,as it seemed to only occur in one area,the crucial one mind you.

no amount of commands would change their minds,until i abandoned the area.

BFC fix or do sumfink:)

[slysniper]

i just finished mission 3 in the scot corridor

i had 2 shermans circling a tiger at around 30 meters, using a move order on one and quick on the other

i knew it would be easy as the tiger couldnt turn its turret quick enough to track one.until the shermans decided to panic and completely disregard the plotted paths,

BFC fix or do sumfink:)

Great tactic in some other games.

I Lol at your results here,

Now I have assaulted tanks up close and personnal with three shermans in the game, but I just send them to three different flanking locations, give them a stop and shoot command, then maybe a move command to a second location. I also have noted that some of my tanks might not like the orders, where others will follow through with it.

I THINK IT SEEMS REALISTIC.

When you give a command that takes real guts to do by a person, you should not be suprised if someone chickens out and just tries to get out of there.

Lets see, which would you prefer to do. Sneak up and shoot him in the ass from them woods 200 meters to his rear.

or go up and charge him, drive circles around him, firing as you go, I promise he wont get a bead on you and blow you to kingdom come.

[snake_eye]

i just finished mission 3 in the scot corridor

i had 2 shermans circling a tiger at around 30 meters, using a move order on one and quick on the other

i knew it would be easy as the tiger couldnt turn its turret quick enough to track one.until the shermans decided to panic and completely disregard the plotted paths,stopping and reversing away from the non threat,until it actually became one,and both were destroyed due to idiocy

I had the same fate against a lone panther with a B-N basic game scenario. The Sherman were hidden by trees during their approach. At 50 meters they were unable to engage the Panther showing its back. Then its turret traversed and the two Shermans got smoked.

Question : Why the Sherman did not shoot having no LOS while the Panther which was not supposed to see them could? :cool:

[Steiner14]

What i don't understand, why there seem to be no restrictions or a priority system for the AI's rules in case of traffic-jams that force the tank's AI that it will never ever be allowed to plot a path resulting with the rear torwards the threat. If it's too difficult to let the AI make semi-intelligent reverse and traversing maneuvers, then IMO it could be better to give the player a message, that he shold deal with a certain vehicle manually.

And why doesn't get the unit that's faster or heavier or on the right get priority and the rest is paused until the unit with highest priority has left the area, instead of silly pauses of a few seconds making the jam worse?

[MengJiaoRedux]

What i don't understand, why there seem to be no restrictions or a priority system for the AI's rules in case of traffic-jams that force the tank's AI that it will never ever be allowed to plot a path resulting with the rear torwards the threat. If it's too difficult to let the AI make semi-intelligent reverse and traversing maneuvers, then IMO it could be better to give the player a message, that he shold deal with a certain vehicle manually.

And why doesn't get the unit that's faster or heavier or on the right get priority and the rest is paused until the unit with highest priority has left the area, instead of silly pauses of a few seconds making the jam worse?

I get the message that I need to deal with the traffic jam when I see a traffic jam. It might be interesting if there was some way to assign a priority

to formations. So for example an ordinary move would just be a move, but a "priority fast column move" would force the others to clear out and cause it to arrange itself in a column order and go by road as quickly as possible.