Urban warfare

[GI Adelscott]

Let's illustrate that thread with some pics taken from a panzerfaust action in a semi urban environement. Just for fun...

[Vanir Ausf B]

My personal opinion at the moment (which could certainly change with new information) is that the current absolute prohibition on backblast weapons being fired from all building interiors probably goes too far in one direction. At the same time, simply allowing all such weapons to be easily fired from any building interior would probably go too far in the other direction and so this simplistic a change would not result in any real gain in verisimilitude; it would simply be swapping one unrealism for another.

I disagree. One of dieseltaylor's posts references a US Army test that has been discussed previously on the forum that shows the danger posed by firing AT rockets from buildings is largely mythical.

"Firing these weapons from enclosures presented no serious hazards, even when the overpressure was enough to produce structural damage to the building. Little hazard exists to the gunnery or crew from any type of flying debris. Loose items were not hurled around the room. No substantial degradation occurs to the operator's tracking performance as a result of obscuration or blast overpressure."

This test included weapons such as the Dragon that have more back blast than any WW2-era equivalent (IIRC. Someone posted the exact explosive charges for the various weapons in a previous thread that I could look up if needed).

That being the case I see no need for separate rules for different weapons, and I do think an across the board change would be a net increase is realism, not only because the original justification is rather dubious but also to compensate for other engine limitations that work against the use of AT weapons in urban areas (specifically I'm thinking of the inability of AT teams to use corners as partial cover while firing, an issue which is not going to be addressed any time soon).

[Warmachine113]

Wow! Nice demonstration...(BTW)the map you play on seems awesome!!

[GI Adelscott]

Wow! Nice demonstration...(BTW)the map you play on seems awesome!!

Thanks dude. It's designed by a mate and me.

"RHI_01 Abram's Folly - Singling", you can find it at repository. Only H2H scenario. Enjoy it!

[YankeeDog]

@Vanir Ausf B:

It's admittedly a subject about where there's information on both sides, and eventually you just have to make a subjective call. My conclusions are a little different from yours, but I'll freely admit that yours is a reasonable conclusion as well.

I've read the stuff you've cited, and I've also read accounts by actual vets who handled and fired weapons like the Dragon, who said they wouldn't even consider firing one from inside a small room. It depends on which sources you give more weight, I guess.

You also have to be careful comparing more modern weapons to the WWII-era analogs because the propulsion systems are often quite different and therefore their relative backblast effects can't be extrapolated based simply on charge/propellant weight or something like that. The M47, for example, used a launch rocket stage that burned in the tube only, followed by an unusual sustain/guidance motor composed of many small explosive charges that initiated once the missile was a safe distance from the operator. This is very different from the Bazooka and Panzerfaust, which had only a single solid-fuel rocket stage that was intended to burn mostly or entirely inside the tube, and then the projectile simply followed a ballistic trajectory to the target.

And the Panzerfausts were different still. They're basically a rudimentary recoilless rifle, with a black powder charge detonating in the tube, pushing equally out both directions, launching the warhead out one end, and sending a plume of hot gas out the other. As far as I can tell, firing one from inside a small room must have been similar to detonating an M80 (or larger, depending on model) inside said room. I can verify from my own poor judgement as a teenager that this is a survivable incident. I can also verify that it will leave you feeling like your brain has been scrambled, render you briefly most deaf, and give you one hell of a headache for several hours...

Like I said, I'm open revising my opinion based on new info.

[para]

Did the Germans not fire their fausts/shreks from within buildings during the fall Berlin?

[Rocky Balboa]

Are you talking about in a RT game or PBEM game? I can see myself doing that in RT but how do you do that in a PBEM game? In a one minute time span often that infantry is dead from HE fire.

YD answered your questions correctly and yes doing this is somewhat easier in RT but by using pauses you can have your riflemen fire for 15 seconds to button the tank then move to a new position and hide. The ideal solution is to have 2 teams in different locations, one fires for 15 seconds then moves, while the first team is moving the second team pops up and fires for 15-20 secs then moves to another location. In addition to causing the tank to button the tac-ai will be focused on these 2 teams while your AT team moves up for that flank or rear shot.

Have you actually seen units throw a satchel charge in CMBN? I haven't yet so far....can it actually be done in the game?

Yep, it was either grenades thrown on the deck or a satchel charge but either way a nearby Sherman got too aggressive and drove right up next to a german squad(-) and was subsequently knocked out.

[sburke]

Have you actually seen units throw a satchel charge in CMBN? I haven't yet so far....can it actually be done in the game?

There is actually a screenshot in one of these threads showing it.

[YankeeDog]

Did the Germans not fire their fausts/shreks from within buildings during the fall Berlin?

Yes, but most of those buildings were merely partially collapsed shells by that time.

Someone, (I forget who) recently posted a very nice example of how to create a partially collapsed building that gives very good infantry cover by using a rubbled building combined with sections of low and/or high stone walls. Until we get more detailed modeling of buildings and building damage, firing backblast weapons within buildings etc. in a future game family, If you want to represent fighting in Caen or another built-up area where heavy shelling had taken place, I definitely think putting some "buildings" like this on the map would be a good way to go.

[Felix_45]

To YD and RB

Those are excellent tips that I will use. I often forget about being able to give commands to waypoints. Good to know about the demo charges being used by soldiers albeit using Tac ai only. I was under the impression that it did not happen.

I loved the good old days where you could command your men to throw a demo charge and watch an entire building blow up.....I suppose with CMBN the resulting explosion would kill the throwers he he.

One hint about using demo charges on vehicles. If you know there is something hiding on the other side of bocage, you can order an engineer team to "blast" a hole in the bocage and take out the vehicle (or anything else) that is on the other side.

[Rocky Balboa]

One hint about using demo charges on vehicles. If you know there is something hiding on the other side of bocage, you can order an engineer team to "blast" a hole in the bocage and take out the vehicle (or anything else) that is on the other side.

Do tell??? I've never tried this before but if it does indeed work on bocage as you say then I suppose it might also work against a tank on the other side of a building wall or a vehicle parked next to a stone wall could be taken out in similar fashion :cool: I'm going to have to do some testing on this little trick ....

[dieseltaylor]

If I am correct that in CMBN there are no restrictions on turret elevations then the levelling factor to infantry of firing within buildings seems reasonable.

If it is a case of two wrongs making a right result in urban fighting so be it. If one wanted to make it more realistic then you might restrict use in the smallest buildings. Incidentally there is a note somewhere that alleys and rubble areas are actually dangerous for the loader or other troops when bazookas fire due to flying debris or channeled blast. : )

[Vanir Ausf B]

@Vanir Ausf B:

It's admittedly a subject about where there's information on both sides, and eventually you just have to make a subjective call. My conclusions are a little different from yours, but I'll freely admit that yours is a reasonable conclusion as well.

I understand it isn't cut and dried, and reasonable arguments can be made either way. I'm looking at the larger problem of AT weapons being unrealistically difficult to use in urban environment. There are clearly several different issues that together have contributed towards making armor the queen of the CMBN urban battlefield.

My position is that allowing AT rockets to fire from buildings is the one change that would have the most effect. It also appears to me that it would be by far the easiest change to implement, and by extension probably the only change we could expect to see made in CMBN. I don't want to wait 2+ years to see if things are better in the Bulge game when it could be better now.

[Felix_45]

Do tell??? I've never tried this before but if it does indeed work on bocage as you say then I suppose it might also work against a tank on the other side of a building wall or a vehicle parked next to a stone wall could be taken out in similar fashion :cool: I'm going to have to do some testing on this little trick ....

I don't know if it would work on a tank on the other side of a building but a wall would be the same I think. I'm not the kind of guy to test things out....I lack the time to do it...so I rely on others to post their results.

For me I was in PBEM game and I knew some kind of vehicle was on the other side of bocage so I sneaked an engineer team to that other side of the bocage and ordered a blast.....the jeep on the other side was destroyed. I suppose if it worked on a jeep it would work on anything else. I suppose one could blow up infantry hiding in a building that way too....sneaking up on a wall without windows that is.

[c3k]

If I am correct that in CMBN there are no restrictions on turret elevations then the levelling factor to infantry of firing within buildings seems reasonable.

If it is a case of two wrongs making a right result in urban fighting so be it. If one wanted to make it more realistic then you might restrict use in the smallest buildings. Incidentally there is a note somewhere that alleys and rubble areas are actually dangerous for the loader or other troops when bazookas fire due to flying debris or channeled blast. : )

True, regarding no elevation limits. The reasoning for this has been discussed at length and makes good sense. Yes, it can cause urban issues, but the benefits greatly outweigh this drawback.

[para]

Yes, but most of those buildings were merely partially collapsed shells by that time.

Someone, (I forget who) recently posted a very nice example of how to create a partially collapsed building that gives very good infantry cover by using a rubbled building combined with sections of low and/or high stone walls. Until we get more detailed modeling of buildings and building damage, firing backblast weapons within buildings etc. in a future game family, If you want to represent fighting in Caen or another built-up area where heavy shelling had taken place, I definitely think putting some "buildings" like this on the map would be a good way to go.

Sounds like a good compromise. Also I would love to be able to have our boys peep round corners and launch zooks/fausts and piats etc

[YankeeDog]

I suppose one could blow up infantry hiding in a building that way too....sneaking up on a wall without windows that is.

The definitely works; I've used this tactic frequently in both CMBN an CMSF. The blast won't necessarily kill all infantry on the other side of the wall, but it will definitely suppress them. Very effective way of entering occupied buildings. For best results, use two teams, one to do the blast, and another nearby to overwatch and start shooting into the building as soon as the wall is blown open.

[para]

Do tell??? I've never tried this before but if it does indeed work on bocage as you say then I suppose it might also work against a tank on the other side of a building wall or a vehicle parked next to a stone wall could be taken out in similar fashion :cool: I'm going to have to do some testing on this little trick ....

I had a game were a German tank was parked up down a lane and next to the lane was a courtyard.

I rolled my Sherman in to the courtyard lined him up with the German tank then got my engineers to blow the wall.

Once the wall had an hole in it, I had a perfect flank shot on the tank..you can guess the rest.

ps some of my engineers got wasted by my tank, blasting away at the German I forgot to tell em to blast and move away..doh

[JonS]

ps some of my engineers got wasted by my tank, blasting away at the German I forgot to tell em to blast and move away..doh

Something about ommelettes and eggs would seem to be appropriate here ...

[para]

Something about ommelettes and eggs would seem to be appropriate here ...

Lol very true

I know the example was different to what was being discussed but it did include engineers and holes being created to get at AFV's and the such.

p.s. those brave boys got mauled blue on blue. I was their CO and I let them down

[GhostRider3/3]

It depends on the map, mostly. Some provide lots of low and tall walls and hedges and dead angles to ambush tanks from, others not so much.

I agree with Sergei... it really depends on the map, QB City maps are not going to benefit your troops at all. From what I have experienced with th QB maps anyways.

I made a partial section of Carentan. Its alleyways, intersections, High and low walls and different level of buildings offer a Urban nightmare for any attacker... LOL unless they pound it with Artillery for awhile.. (but Artillery is Queen).

Anyways with the right equipment, and placement you can hold off a large contingent. I had roughly simulated a Company strength of Germans with 3 75mm Pak ATG, x2 Stug III, some 81mm Support, which held off rougly a Battalion size American element, and about 23 Shermans.. It was all pretty much Ambush placement.. hiding until the last moment if possible, Mortaring Infantry in the open to suppress them, and running 2 stug's around as mobile Fire Brigade.

However that being said, I still lost 2 ATG, and 1 Stug.... with some Infantry casualites of about 40% The tanks really do SPOT Rather well even buttoned up im afraid... Anyways alot of it is placement, and security for your AT Assets.

[Vinnart]

Part of it is the game. You can't have a panzerfaust team step out from around a corner, fire and seek cover around the corner. Tanks also have way too effective spotting to try it.

You can have the infantry run out from behind the building, fire, then run back by giving a pause of 5 seconds at the connecting waypoint. Give the AT inf a FACE command in the direction of the enemy tank at the firing waypoint.

I haven’t played any urban maps yet, but ambushing with AT infantry shouldn’t be too much of a problem depending on the opponent. If it against the AI then it is an easy win. If it against a human, and they know how to keep a good infantry screen in front of the armor then obviously things could get a bit hairy, but not impossible. The key to making an aggressive move is timing, the willingness to sacrifice an AT guy for the tank, and luck. I'll sacrifice a pawn for a queen anyday. I just did in a PBEM I am in. A green machine gun team for a Panther tank sounds like a bargain to me.

[Sublime]

I do hope that some work is done on coding things, or even tweaking stuff to help with urban combat - since the 2nd module is gonna be Arnhem..

As far as tactics - this is probably obvious to most experienced players - but all too often when I come up against inexperienced players they defend villages and cities from the edge. If it works for you fine - but I like to run my defense lines either right behind or in the middle of the village. It kills the attacker's support weapons line of sight, and allows for some very nice ambushes...

Also - if I know enemy air support is coming I rush any infantry into buildings, they usually will not get spotted by aircraft. Same with heavy artillery barrages. If you have any time at all before direct enemy contact happens, I put my men on ground floors of buildings hiding. This significantly lowers casualties to shelling. Also if you find that it'd be death for your men to flee when you see the spotting rounds, or if there are no spotting rounds or you're already being shelled use the hide command. The men keep their heads down much more, and usually it takes a direct hit to cause casualties. Be extremely careful doing this however, if enemy infantry are nearby and they can rush you, they'll slaughter your men.

Also - split your squads. I see this all too often, and my mortars reap the rewards. You have got to split your men up. Keep in mind also the bullets are heavy caliber generally - and generally will also punch through walls. If you think of the walls as cardboard, you're thinking right. So like someone said on page 3, split the men up, and put them on different floors. Having a whole squad on floor one of a barn or something is asking for it. Not only are most of the men not able to fire out of windows and are just standing there, but they're filling up space that bullets will be going through. More than 3-4 men a floor on almost any building is really asking for it..

[dieseltaylor]

Interesting stuff Sublime. It is very easy when reading a post to forget that real life and what happens in game are not always the same. I tend to have to check myself from assuming the writer is talking of RL and remeber it is advice on how to play the game system.

As a general point it is helpful if the writer says they play mainly PBEM or RT as I suspect some advice makes a lot of sense in one variant but not necessarily in the other.

[Sublime]

diesel - I play single player usually in RT at warrior or elite. however I rarely do single player any more - we usually PBEM it at warrior or elite. usually elite.