Snake726

Graham's "hierarchy of disagreement" is, well stupid - a great example of a software developer getting the bright idea that rhetoric exists (without, of course, reading Aristotle or the like - Graham independently discovered rhetoric!)

The day I take the co-founder of Y-Combinator seriously will be the day I dump all my science and philosophy books into the trash, along with my brain, and get an MBA.

Many years ago, my group leader on the phone promised to deliver something by a date we knew we'd miss by 3 weeks. But the guy from Naval Reactors was adamant. "You absolutely CANNOT miss this date. So are you going to meet the date?"  So Bob said, "Yes, sir".  After he hung up we both asked why he told him that knowing that THEY hadn't given us data we needed yet and it would be 3 more weeks assuming we got the data tomorrow.
He told us "Don't worry about it. You just keep working. I'll handle him. But let me tell you something. Ten years from now he won't remember if you were late, but he WILL remember if you are wrong."  
We always tried to keep our commitments but we made sure it was right first (these are nuclear submarines we're talking about, so a little more critical than a wargame/simulation).

Hi
For everybody interested, how the boss at work to determine how much it will take us to complete the task. It is possible to self-advise BFC how to determine the date of release of the game.
At the beginning of August, the boss asks when we are finishing the project, we know from our previous work and experience that it will take us 2 months. We, however, answer the duration of the formula:  time x 2 plus half the time. In this case, it's 2 months x 2 = 4 plus 1 month, which means we get 5 months. The boss can shake his head for a long time, but you know he will not do it himself at the time.
Now we can act smoothly and the thread does not bother us. If we do it sooner then everyone is happy, and we can tell that we were doing after hours, nights, on weekends to speed up, etc.
Sorry my english.

Your argument is weak because it is factually incorrect. The full game release window is end of Sept not the demo:
https://www.battlefront.com/

Secondly if a customer has paid for something they have a right to know when to reasonably expect to receive the product. If BF can't make the window, that's fine (we understand) but update us with the revised window. E.g. is it weeks or months, or next summer? (EDIT: And we are not even onto the issue re overdue patch releases)

Expecting the Developer to offer a simple update is not unreasonable when the customer has parted with cash for a product not yet received!

But we are going over old ground already established in this thread....

The only reason this thread is continuing is because of weak retorts from those trying to defend BF,  that then bring posters back to reiterate the same inescapable truths about this whole matter. 

LOL I can totally relate.  I won't even start on some of the project issues I am having.  It would take too many beers and it waters down too much when I cry in it.

To the point about customers complaining, does anyone else find it inherently fascinating that business in general often has this complexion: We survive only because of customers, yet their very presence is an exhausting weight that must be endured. They are both the sole reason for your existence, and, seemingly, a kind of existential burden.

I have spent about $300.00 here. That's more than I've given AAA game developers in the last year. If I didn't find it so sweetly ironic I would find it incredibly sad that posts in the same vein as mine are read by Battlefront as attacks - or, as Burke suggests: whining.

The people "whining" are, perhaps quite literally given the size of the community, the only people allowing you to contribute to making these games.

I can tell you that the response from beta testers and the like have made me pause on a purchase of Red Thunder. It felt wrong for the moment to be so disappointed in the staff, and then hand them more money. If you're looking for an effect caused by your behaviour, there's a clue.

To the point about customers complaining, does anyone else find it inherently fascinating that business in general often has this complexion: We survive only because of customers, yet their very presence is an exhausting weight that must be endured. They are both the sole reason for your existence, and, seemingly, a kind of existential burden.

I have spent about $300.00 here. That's more than I've given AAA game developers in the last year. If I didn't find it so sweetly ironic I would find it incredibly sad that posts in the same vein as mine are read by Battlefront as attacks - or, as Burke suggests: whining.

The people "whining" are, perhaps quite literally given the size of the community, the only people allowing you to contribute to making these games.

I can tell you that the response from beta testers and the like have made me pause on a purchase of Red Thunder. It felt wrong for the moment to be so disappointed in the staff, and then hand them more money. If you're looking for an effect caused by your behaviour, there's a clue.

That's intentionally misleading. People are taking issue with no subsequent posts being made, not with the initial announcement, and not even with the date possibly slipping.

My god - it is alarming to think that the message they might receive is to not post at all, rather than "post more than once".

It's important not to paint Battlefront with the same brush as some of their more "dedicated" fans, because it isn't fair to Battlefront. These "super fans" take any criticism of the game, or even sometimes bug reports, as personal attacks. You'll see their kind in any sort of niche community, it's best to ignore them.  

To the point about customers complaining, does anyone else find it inherently fascinating that business in general often has this complexion: We survive only because of customers, yet their very presence is an exhausting weight that must be endured. They are both the sole reason for your existence, and, seemingly, a kind of existential burden.

I have spent about $300.00 here. That's more than I've given AAA game developers in the last year. If I didn't find it so sweetly ironic I would find it incredibly sad that posts in the same vein as mine are read by Battlefront as attacks - or, as Burke suggests: whining.

The people "whining" are, perhaps quite literally given the size of the community, the only people allowing you to contribute to making these games.

I can tell you that the response from beta testers and the like have made me pause on a purchase of Red Thunder. It felt wrong for the moment to be so disappointed in the staff, and then hand them more money. If you're looking for an effect caused by your behaviour, there's a clue.

From my point of view, I have learned that a lot more effort is going into the update than originally planned, e.g. most/all scenarios being tweaked/improved, new artwork, new functionality. For me that is a good thing, and I understand that this might/will delay a delivery date. I am checking in regularly because I want to get my hands on the game - I see this as a positive thing. I am not having a go at Battlefront at all. I am sure they are working to deliver a top quality experience. It would be helpful simply to get an updated idea of when it will arrive so I can manage my own expectations. And this is all in the context that the deadline hasn’t even passed yet!

I know you are just beta testers.  But it is you guys that come back in and seem to try to turn the conversation about everyone picking on Steve and BFC.  And you come across as semi-official.  So what you say carries some weight.
Instead of just saying, yeah, we know it sucks that our boss doesn't communicate, you feel the need to aggregate every slight BFC has ever faced in their 19 year history.  There are a couple beta testers that generalize individual statements into all out customer-led attacks on all that is BFC.  It would probably be better as a beta tester to not say anything.  Let it go.  By you guys coming in and trying to ride herd, you are letting Steve and BFC off the hook on their poor business practices. 
People will come in and complain.  So what?  Its not like BFC is going to suddenly change or salvage its reputation in single forum thread.  You guys do more harm then good when you circle the wagons on issues that are legitimate or excuse away BFC's actions/inactions.  You guys, as beta testers seem very frustrated by these conversations.  So why do you involve yourselves?   Let BFC address it, or not.
I came to the place in my life that I recognize that BFC makes great games, but, outside a cadre of old players and beta testers, they really don't like their customers much.  I still play now and then, and I poke my head in now and then, but I tend not to take stuff personally much.  As long as the games are good, I'll put up with the abuse.

The most frustrating thing to me is that  when someone complains about the comms blackout, it's immediately run up as a tirade about missing deadlines.  There are a number of people who have specifically stated that its not about the date, its about being left in the dark.
Can someone who is in any kind of "know" just address that?  And its not just about this site.  There are threads on other sites where the attitude is much harsher about the lack of updates.  And those sites should be a marketing dream for BFC.  Instead, BFC is vilified for not communicating. 
A simple five minutes to post an update would solve this particular point.  A simple "Its taking longer than expected.   Limited time, overly complex, unexpected challenges, dog ate my homework, yada yada."

That's intentionally misleading. People are taking issue with no subsequent posts being made, not with the initial announcement, and not even with the date possibly slipping.

My god - it is alarming to think that the message they might receive is to not post at all, rather than "post more than once".

WAAAH! I had many a frustrating but fun night playing Trespasser. Man, that game had the absolute WORST controls ever seen! I actually finished it, though.
As far as the dramatics go, I just wanted to know if SF2 is gonna be late, so I can re-calibrate my expectations. I think that's all most of us wanted to know. But at this point it's looking like it will be LOL. Three more days and the question will be moot and answered.
 
Mord.

I talked to some of my friends who dabble in reenacting and such.  They said that Tropical uniforms would have been issued to semi-permanent forces in that theater, or those that had been established in that Theater for some time.  They also said that the Divisions inbound to the Italian Theater would not have been issued the Tropical gear, with exception to units stationed or assigned to North Africa, Southern France, Italian, Greek  regions.  The uniform changed a bit,  by mid 1941 they did away with the twill and substituted it for Cotton, these uniforms were slightly greenish in color and faded to sage green brown of sorts (The twill tropical)  Luftwaffe tropical were more yellowish Khaki in color and were vastly different from the Heer Tropical.  As far as camouflage in the Italian theater they would of had access to Italian camo and Heer standard. I guess someone would have to look at Divisional photo's or records to see if the inbound Divisions would have been issued Tropical.  My guess is probably not if they were rapidly deployed.  Perhaps some of the units could have picked up Tropical Uniforms if they had stores of them in supply.  So maybe mixed??  Not sure this was just a simple discussion with a friend over the phone.

Wow, this is great, seeing one of my scenarios used in such a fashion - makes all the work worth it! Hopefully the scenario execution won't let you down. For everyone reading, this stuff really does happen, in this level of detail too, especially at the battalion level. And as an artilleryman and fire supporter, I get to see this level of planning from the maneuver guys every time I go to the field  - and every time I'm thankful my job is the easy part of all this - blowing stuff up! 

If your view was more nuanced then "The refugees are the reason the German military is in bad shape" I would absolutely agree with that quote. Since I haven't seen any other kind of reasoning from you it doesn't apply, sorry. Is that part of the problem though? Sure if you think social programs and the like that go to them and the rest of the population should instead be spent on the military.

I think it would be best if we could keep this forum confined to CM and WW2 history in general. But, when certain Arrogant (sic) people start spouting about "refugees" then their rants cannot be left unopposed. 
My granddad was an "economic migrant" or refugee as modern parlance would have it. He saw his mates being killed in 1940 on the road back to Dunkirk, then went through the Western Desert, and Normandy, and on to Hamburg. I won't use the words of Roy Keane on a forum that might attract younger readers, but I suggest that "Arrogant" (sic) follows his advice. 

About Germany, isn't the whole point that it was to be neutered after the war, so that it wouldn't become a danger to Europe once more? And as a result of that neutering the German people today are culturally not very militaristic. 
So, in a democracy, if the people are not militaristic, why would they vote for politicians who would take their tax money and spend it on the army?
There's lots of other things you can do with taxes, that are better for the average person. Or at least are felt more directly than paying for having loads of tanks rumbling around on exercises in some distant field.

Yes the refugees stole all of the money from the Bundeswehr in the span of 4-5 years, this definitely isn't part of a chronic problem that's existed for far longer then that. It must be nice to be able to scapegoat one decision as the reason for all of a country's failings. It certainly has nothing to do with Germany's military history and all that that entails.

Yeah we have the same problem. We allowed thousands of Angles, Saxons, and Jutes into this country.

You mean the 95 out of 244 Leopard tanks which are in operating condition? Or the 39 out of 128 Eurofighter? Or the 12 out it 53 Tiger helicopters?
Refer to the latest annual report, which draws a shocking picture:
https://www.google.ch/amp/amp.handelsblatt.com/politik/deutschland/bericht-bundeswehr-waffensysteme-weisen-erhebliche-maengel-auf/21011248.html

I don't mind the wait.  It's Battlefront's repeated unkept promises that I find quite irritating.  If you run into unexpected issues that slow down progress, let us know you can't make the target date, we would surely understand.  But to disappear for over a month and not give any status update is unprofessional by my book.

Stryker MOUT 😁