John Kettler Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 Found this on Tank Archives while trying to chase down something else. This is chiefly about MOUT and is essential reading if you would understand how the Soviets dismantled German defenses via CA tactics and organization. They were meticulous. http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2014/05/soviet-tank-tactics-1945.html Regards, John Kettler 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 Interesting reading, John, thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 10, 2018 Author Share Posted March 10, 2018 Aragorn2002, You're most welcome. When reading the Russian material, including the technical tests, I find the Germans and the Russians all of a piece. They are both super crisp, minimalist and rigorous in the way they describe things. Maybe that's why they got on so well when Germany was doing all that weapon work in Russia before the war and had given the Russians access to their armament plants, too. I consider Tank Archives to be worth its weight in gold, though fortunately, no one's come to collect! Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, John Kettler said: Aragorn2002, You're most welcome. When reading the Russian material, including the technical tests, I find the Germans and the Russians all of a piece. They are both super crisp, minimalist and rigorous in the way they describe things. Maybe that's why they got on so well when Germany was doing all that weapon work in Russia before the war and had given the Russians access to their armament plants, too. I consider Tank Archives to be worth its weight in gold, though fortunately, no one's come to collect! Regards, John Kettler Perhaps because there's a lot of Russian propaganda around at that side, John. They are even talking about 1:1.1 ratio losses (Wehrmacht vs. Red Army). Give it another 10 years or so and they will have rewritten their 'combat history' of WW2. There's even a law against 'belittling' the Russian war effort now. Edited March 10, 2018 by Aragorn2002 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 10, 2018 Author Share Posted March 10, 2018 Aragorn2002, First they closed the various archives to foreigners, then came the "verbotten to report on things (failed ops) that made the Red Army look bad." Good thing Glantz et al. got copies of the relevant material first. Besides, one such visit just before the State Archives were denied netted unmistakeable DNA proof that the supposed Hitler skull fragment held there was from a woman! The documents over at Tank Archives are high level internal documents, documents which usually had a very small circulation because of classification. The exception, which really stood out for me, was the order to make the findings regarding Ferdinand weak points available clear down to TCs and gun commanders. That was novel. Obviously, the loss ratio manipulation (which I wasn't aware of, so thanks!) is blatant distortion of thoroughly unpleasant historical reality. And I guarantee you the Kremlin is none too happy about Germany's current military capabilities, not to mention the clout it wields in NATO and the EU. Russia's already had two unforgettable encounters with the continental power that is Germany and is accordingly chary. Regards, John Kettler 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StieliAlpha Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 21 hours ago, John Kettler said: And I guarantee you the Kremlin is none too happy about Germany's current military capabilities, You mean the 95 out of 244 Leopard tanks which are in operating condition? Or the 39 out of 128 Eurofighter? Or the 12 out it 53 Tiger helicopters? Refer to the latest annual report, which draws a shocking picture: https://www.google.ch/amp/amp.handelsblatt.com/politik/deutschland/bericht-bundeswehr-waffensysteme-weisen-erhebliche-maengel-auf/21011248.html 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 50 minutes ago, StieliAlpha said: And I guarantee you the Kremlin is none too happy about Germany's current military capabilities, Cloud Cuckoo Land. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/11420627/German-army-used-broomsticks-instead-of-guns-during-training.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_Fuller Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 (edited) The Bundeswehr is in terrible shape. It was only a couple of years ago that it came out that they could barely get Panzergrenadierbataillon 371 up to its paper strength even when stripping the rest of the army for equipment. https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article144983577/Muessen-uns-fragen-ob-wir-im-Ernstfall-abwehrfaehig-sind.html Quote In a secret classified report ("VS-NfD"), the battalion had to be "lent" a total of 14,792 equipment items at 56 other Bundeswehr units. Quote Der Wehrbeauftragte des Bundestags, Hans-Peter Bartels (SPD) kommentierte dies der Zeitung gegenüber mit deutlichen Worten: „Es ist komplett inakzeptabel, wenn für rund 900 deutsche Soldaten der Nato-Eingreiftruppe fast 15.000 Ausrüstungsgegenstände im gesamten Rest der Bundeswehr zusammengeborgt werden müssen.“ Bundestag Defense Commissioner Hans-Peter Bartels (SPD) commented this to the newspaper in clear terms: "It is completely unacceptable for nearly 900 German soldiers of the NATO reaction force to have to borrow almost 15,000 pieces of equipment throughout the remainder of the Bundeswehr." In a normal army and with a regular unit, this wouldn't really be a big deal. No one is able to fully meet their paper allocations anyway in most units. When they do get up to paper strength, it's by stripping parts and materiel from other battalions or brigades. But this is supposed to be Germany's contribution to the NATO VHRJTF, effectively Germany's highest readiness unit. It's supposed to be as well equipped as the Bundeswehr can get. Yet they can barely keep their vehicles running and weapons shooting. It isn't much of a leap to assume that the rest of the Bundeswehr is in similar dire straits with regards to equipment availability. The state of the German military is a trainwreck, even the Germans acknowledge it and have been wringing their hands over it for years, but no one knows where to find the money to pay for the things the Bundeswehr need to do their jobs. Edited March 11, 2018 by Saint_Fuller 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 10 minutes ago, Saint_Fuller said: The state of the German military is a trainwreck, even the Germans acknowledge it and have been wringing their hands over it for years, but no one knows where to find the money to pay for the things the Bundeswehr need to do their jobs. Oh they know where the money is alright..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 12 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said: Oh they know where the money is alright..... We all do.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StieliAlpha Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 2 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said: Oh they know where the money is alright..... 1 hour ago, Aragorn2002 said: We all do.... Well, many would say it went into the restoration of Eastern Germany, after the Wall came tumbling down. Which would not be the worst way to spend some money. 🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 1 hour ago, StieliAlpha said: Well, many would say it went into the restoration of Eastern Germany, after the Wall came tumbling down. Which would not be the worst way to spend some money. 🤔 I think allowing hundreds of thousands of refugees and 'refugees' into the country is the real problem. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warts 'n' all Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 10 minutes ago, Aragorn2002 said: I think allowing hundreds of thousands of refugees and 'refugees' into the country is the real problem. Yeah we have the same problem. We allowed thousands of Angles, Saxons, and Jutes into this country. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AttorneyAtWar Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 (edited) Yes the refugees stole all of the money from the Bundeswehr in the span of 4-5 years, this definitely isn't part of a chronic problem that's existed for far longer then that. It must be nice to be able to scapegoat one decision as the reason for all of a country's failings. It certainly has nothing to do with Germany's military history and all that that entails. Edited March 11, 2018 by Raptorx7 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Warts 'n' all said: Yeah we have the same problem. We allowed thousands of Angles, Saxons, and Jutes into this country. "Allowed" is a nice way to put it Just like you kindly allowed the Romans, Vikings, and eventually the Normans into your country. Jolly big tea party, that... Edited March 11, 2018 by Bulletpoint 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 About Germany, isn't the whole point that it was to be neutered after the war, so that it wouldn't become a danger to Europe once more? And as a result of that neutering the German people today are culturally not very militaristic. So, in a democracy, if the people are not militaristic, why would they vote for politicians who would take their tax money and spend it on the army? There's lots of other things you can do with taxes, that are better for the average person. Or at least are felt more directly than paying for having loads of tanks rumbling around on exercises in some distant field. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warts 'n' all Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 I think it would be best if we could keep this forum confined to CM and WW2 history in general. But, when certain Arrogant (sic) people start spouting about "refugees" then their rants cannot be left unopposed. My granddad was an "economic migrant" or refugee as modern parlance would have it. He saw his mates being killed in 1940 on the road back to Dunkirk, then went through the Western Desert, and Normandy, and on to Hamburg. I won't use the words of Roy Keane on a forum that might attract younger readers, but I suggest that "Arrogant" (sic) follows his advice. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 “Intolerance of others’ views (no matter how ignorant or incoherent they may be) is not simply wrong; in a world where there is no right or wrong, it is worse: it is a sign you are embarrassingly unsophisticated or, possibly, dangerous.” ― Jordan B. Peterson, 12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AttorneyAtWar Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 (edited) If your view was more nuanced then "The refugees are the reason the German military is in bad shape" I would absolutely agree with that quote. Since I haven't seen any other kind of reasoning from you it doesn't apply, sorry. Is that part of the problem though? Sure if you think social programs and the like that go to them and the rest of the population should instead be spent on the military. Edited March 12, 2018 by Raptorx7 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 I'm closing this up because it's only going to get worse. Blaming refugees for the Bundeswehr's budget problem is equivalent to arguing that the only reason we haven't colonized Mars by now is because of all the money white people have to spend on sunscreen lotion. Since everybody posting here by definition has access to the Internet, there's no excuse for horrific levels of ignorance about a topic so easily researched as the state of the Bundeswehr and NATO's chronic under funding of its military. But Bulletpoint was spot on when he said: Quote So, in a democracy, if the people are not militaristic, why would they vote for politicians who would take their tax money and spend it on the army? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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