Brille

German tank gunners training had em firing at targets at around 1200-2000m - guns sighted for up to 1200m which means, all things considered the round when fired will travel a flat trajectory for 1200m. At ranges sub 1200m they were trained not to bother acquisition firing i.e. getting the range but to fire for effect, if the round missed then the target was greater than 1200m then they would adjust accordingly. Training also was done against a target moving across their LOF at same range - to learn and practice leading the target. In each case they around 4-3 rounds - exercise stopped when a/ they hit the target or b/ fire all the rounds.
Combat would be a different thing though, vehicle movement, IDing targets, smoke, dust, barrel wear, damage to optics etc would all impact on this. But all things considered anything below 1200m that is IDed and engaged would most likely be hit. In game various crew soft factors impact on this.
Combat engagement ranges do seem to vary. Even on the Eastern Front its seldom totally flat. Rolling terrain, fields, trees etc would impact on LOS and LOF.
One event that stands out for long range engagements between German armour (Tigers and Panthers) would be Targu Frumos with ranges in excess of the 1200m and up to around 2000m. 
I'm pretty sure that who fires first will win mainly held true for WWII- though obvs that assumes that the target you are firing at can be penetrated. The game would be not engaging from the front but tackling (ambushing) from the flanks. Off course if you are a Tiger I in 1943 you are pretty confident that taking on T-34/76s at around 1200m will see you kill em whilst they won't be able to kill you. That changes once T-34/85s and IS-IIs come along...
In CM the AI has no advantage - it plays with the same game mechanics as the human player. There is no advantage and that's been stated multiple times over the years.

Didn't knew that. Thanks for the info. 
Though how do you mean "works as designed"? (guess that the abbreviation for that) 
I would find it a bit more logical if some kind of circle or "bubble" would be drawn around the first spot of an enemy unit. And if this unit stays in this bubble it would be easier to spot it again. This would simulate some errors by the scouting unit and by the receiving unit, searching for this target. 
Simply said it would be just a rough description of the units location "Watch out for a tank in this area/around the barn/around that forest" 
But the way it is "designed" as you say (and the way I understood it) hints more to like 
"Just watch out there is a tank on the map somewhere" 
This would make the whole spotting and inormation transmitting process a bit to simple for my taste. 
But it works good enough I guess. 

That is certainly untrue as I´ve never seen my own vehicles as "knocked out" or enemies as "destroyed". It is either one or the other.
But I agree that it makes no real difference in gameplay logic: The tank/vehicles is out of action and will add up to the AAR screen at the finish....end of story.
 
I don´t know the reason though to make such a difference. Maybe BFC wanted to implement another mechanic there that went finally overboard ? Or since CMx2 was always intended to play even Blue vs Blue or Red vs Red it is to distinguish each other (dead) forces ?
 
A similar topic by the way would be abandoned/destroyed heavy weapons. Either way they are lost and no way to reman them but still they make this distinction.

The biggest problem is to actually get them in range. So you have to avoid any tanks or guns along the way or make sure they are eliminated beforehand. Even then there are anti tank rifles and, in the later stages, panzerfaust wielding soviet troopers that makes traversing difficult. 
 
So you should have over watching units close by to react. 
Suppress known or suspicious enemy locations with MG fire from other units before getting in with the flammwagen. Unsuppressed enemies will make short work on your halftrack gunners as soon as they pop out their heads at this range. 
 
In the limited instances that I used these vehicles, I did it in a kind of "drive by" fashion:
I rushed to the target destination (like 25m from the enemy line) and draw multiple "slow" movement way points along the area I want to spray. So let's say a line of forest or a line of buildings,always making sure that one side of the halftrack is facing the enemy. 
On each way point I then gave it a target or target briefly command, so it would shift the fire to another target on each way point,while still slowly on the move. 
I can post a screenshot later on to maybe make it more understandable. 
 
Never the less, once they finished a "spray run" they either disengage to their lines to avoid counter measures or they make a U turn and go for another run. 
After that your own infantry should have no trouble taking the burned ground as the enemy should be either dead or in a very bad mental state. 

That is certainly untrue as I´ve never seen my own vehicles as "knocked out" or enemies as "destroyed". It is either one or the other.
But I agree that it makes no real difference in gameplay logic: The tank/vehicles is out of action and will add up to the AAR screen at the finish....end of story.
 
I don´t know the reason though to make such a difference. Maybe BFC wanted to implement another mechanic there that went finally overboard ? Or since CMx2 was always intended to play even Blue vs Blue or Red vs Red it is to distinguish each other (dead) forces ?
 
A similar topic by the way would be abandoned/destroyed heavy weapons. Either way they are lost and no way to reman them but still they make this distinction.

This topic goes as far back as Cmx1 itself but I stand with my opinion :
It is more for the feels and does nothing significant. 
You see that the driver of the vehicle starts his "unbogging" process right then when it gets stuck by turning the wheels/tracks back and forth. User movement input is blocked for the time being. 
 
It is hard to test this to either approve or disprove this. How often does a unit bog down? And from this instances how often do they free themselves? 
To be 100%sure we would need to have a programmer insight. 
But either way I say that your unit just got lucky in the "unbogging" process-dice roll and it has nothing to do with you putting it in reverse. 

Yeah it does feel like a desperate measure, or someting only useful during unusual situations such as those few scenarios where there are no combined arms at all and you just get a bunch of recon vehicles. 

I do this from time to time actually. 
Especially when:
- I lack infantry to do the scouting 
- the tanks/vehicles can not communicate with the infantry either verbally (not in range) or via Radio (not in the same formation) 
In one game I bailed out the company commander of a panzer IV company and put him on a hill, while the other tanks positioned behind it. 
After he gathered all the needed info (T34 lying in ambush) he got back in his tank to share it with the rest of the company. 
Cannot say that the attack worked smoothly but it certainly helped to know enemy locations.
If you have the time and space to do it I don't see a reason not to do it.
 

Well CM sometimes have some odd "geographic occurances". I once had it to that even a tank clipped though a building while traversing the landscape. 
 
Or one time at the scenario Riva Ridge in CMFI : I was about to clear a trench with my germans. I took on the Brazilians in close quarter and got them pretty good but one of them refused to die. 
And that was not in a heroic kind of way by any means. He just couldn't die because my troops couldn't hit him while he was cowering. My men fired for more than 2 turns at ranges under 8m so there was hardly any luck involved on his part. 
I guess his hit box sunk into the ground a bit so the game could not register a "hit". 
The germans had to push on and leave him for a bit. He backstabed 2 of my soldiers as he recovered but as he was upright now, the other germans killed him for good this time. 😅
 

Let me start by saying that those of you who find Blinkov's military analyses with its frog puppet jarring are going to really have an issue with Lazer PIg. That said, if you can get past the bizarre front end and a super abundance of NSFW language throughout, there is a wealth of material here on the realities of the T-34, not the propaganda, self-serving analyses, rigged tests, erroneous assumptions and writings of lazy historians. This makes that long online piece called The Myth of T-34 Superiority seem like a passing thought by comparison, slaughtering sacred cows, "known facts", "reliable data" and other structures built not just on sand, but weak sand at that, with wild abandon, even using statements by Stalin about major T-34 reliability problems. Some long time CM hands talk about depicting Tiger and Panther reliability by reducing the percentage actually available for battle, but that seems highly unfair when you learn that in a 500 km road march, HALF of all the T-34s broke down en route. The Russian crew survival rates were shocking if a. tank was hit and penetrated. Russian figures in Dunn's Hitler's Nemesis showed that when a tank was destroyed, so generally were all the crew members killed or incapacitated by wounds.  This became a huge problem for the Red Army which, unlike the British at GOOD WOOD, who had plenty of replacement tanks and crews with a pretty high overall survival rate (typically 1-2 casualties per tank knocked out), the Russians were being forced to replace the tanks and the crews. This is but one of many topics discussed in this wide-ranging, take no prisoners hour-long video. Frankly, I wish it had been longer, for as deep as it went, there simply wasn't time to really get deeply into various maters. If you've ever heard of the expression "drinking from the fire hydrant", you can experience that by watching this most impressive video. There is a wealth of material, too, in the comments and Lazer Pig's replies. Net net, I believe you will never again look at the T-34 quite the same way again.
 

Regards,

John Kettler

My experience is that the passengers of a halftrack only start firing once an enemy is pretty close, lets say around 100m ( not tested).
So you could see it as more of a self defence action to suppress the enemy as the halftrack passes on. At least that´s what they do automatically.
If you manually select the passengers and give them a direct target or area target within their range, they will shoot at it.

Note though that the squad portable machine guns will not fire from this position.
If you are really interested in the exact range from which they automatically fire, you can simulate it via the scenario editor and build up a shooting range.
If you give the vehicle the "open up" command, the passengers should be affected by this too. In some occasions however I had to manually set them to open up.
Maybe it was because the infantry squad embarked the halftrack somewhat later and were not present as I gave the vehicle that order.
 
 

Didn't knew that. Thanks for the info. 
Though how do you mean "works as designed"? (guess that the abbreviation for that) 
I would find it a bit more logical if some kind of circle or "bubble" would be drawn around the first spot of an enemy unit. And if this unit stays in this bubble it would be easier to spot it again. This would simulate some errors by the scouting unit and by the receiving unit, searching for this target. 
Simply said it would be just a rough description of the units location "Watch out for a tank in this area/around the barn/around that forest" 
But the way it is "designed" as you say (and the way I understood it) hints more to like 
"Just watch out there is a tank on the map somewhere" 
This would make the whole spotting and inormation transmitting process a bit to simple for my taste. 
But it works good enough I guess. 

Well if bfc published CMBS today with the premise to depict a historical representation of the Ukraine war, then you would be rightly disappointed maybe. 
But as it stands now you can be disappointed all you want but that's somewhat on you. You bought the game based on the facts bfc has given you: An alternate, fictional war in Ukraine (that wasn't even happening at that time). 
If you haven't informed yourself beforehand, you are the one to blame. 
Its like going into a fish restaurant and being disappointed about getting a fish for your meal while you would have liked a steak instead. 
Don't get me wrong your points itself surely make sense and probably would be great to see but this game is a finished product with maybe some tweaks, modules and battlepacks in the unclear future. Maybe bfc will give it a credit in one of those but probably not. This game is several years old now. Other companies would have already dumped it and be getting to their next game. 
And though I would myself like to include some of these ideas for historical accuracy, I doubt that it would make that much fun in a quick battle. Getting hammered by roaming drones half of the time is hardly anything tactical challenging. 
I somewhere read that bfc isn't all that fond of air assets getting involved in the ground combat at all. So thats maybe partially why Syrians don't getting hammered by Nato airforce in CMSF2 most of the time, rather being attacked by normal ground forces. So I doubt that bfc will adjust drones to be more common. But they should be at least available for Ukraine too, I give you that. 
 
CMBS may be the weakest game in the series for me too but that's mostly about the lethality of things. Tanks and infantry can be wiped out in an instant if one is not careful enough. 
Often you split your infantry to small spread out teams to reduce casualties by one artillery barrage or a tank round. 
Artillery is more common and deadlier than in any other game in the series. 
So comparing to real events I think bfc nailed the feel of a modern battlefield, while not depicting the historical war entirely. 

A clash between Panzer IV and Churchills got very bloody for both sides:
 




 
Advancing through the hedgerows...


 
Which is pretty dangerous.

 

 
But there will always be a light at the end of the tunnel.
 
 
Even if it meant that the light is actually a muzzle flash of a 88mm tank canon.
 

This Tiger got stuck in the wet ground...but unfortunately it was right at my avenue of approach...
 
 

 

When desperate enough even a ****ty outhouse can be a hiding spot from those damn tanks.
 

 

 

 
The die hard german squadleader.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Well if bfc published CMBS today with the premise to depict a historical representation of the Ukraine war, then you would be rightly disappointed maybe. 
But as it stands now you can be disappointed all you want but that's somewhat on you. You bought the game based on the facts bfc has given you: An alternate, fictional war in Ukraine (that wasn't even happening at that time). 
If you haven't informed yourself beforehand, you are the one to blame. 
Its like going into a fish restaurant and being disappointed about getting a fish for your meal while you would have liked a steak instead. 
Don't get me wrong your points itself surely make sense and probably would be great to see but this game is a finished product with maybe some tweaks, modules and battlepacks in the unclear future. Maybe bfc will give it a credit in one of those but probably not. This game is several years old now. Other companies would have already dumped it and be getting to their next game. 
And though I would myself like to include some of these ideas for historical accuracy, I doubt that it would make that much fun in a quick battle. Getting hammered by roaming drones half of the time is hardly anything tactical challenging. 
I somewhere read that bfc isn't all that fond of air assets getting involved in the ground combat at all. So thats maybe partially why Syrians don't getting hammered by Nato airforce in CMSF2 most of the time, rather being attacked by normal ground forces. So I doubt that bfc will adjust drones to be more common. But they should be at least available for Ukraine too, I give you that. 
 
CMBS may be the weakest game in the series for me too but that's mostly about the lethality of things. Tanks and infantry can be wiped out in an instant if one is not careful enough. 
Often you split your infantry to small spread out teams to reduce casualties by one artillery barrage or a tank round. 
Artillery is more common and deadlier than in any other game in the series. 
So comparing to real events I think bfc nailed the feel of a modern battlefield, while not depicting the historical war entirely. 

Well if bfc published CMBS today with the premise to depict a historical representation of the Ukraine war, then you would be rightly disappointed maybe. 
But as it stands now you can be disappointed all you want but that's somewhat on you. You bought the game based on the facts bfc has given you: An alternate, fictional war in Ukraine (that wasn't even happening at that time). 
If you haven't informed yourself beforehand, you are the one to blame. 
Its like going into a fish restaurant and being disappointed about getting a fish for your meal while you would have liked a steak instead. 
Don't get me wrong your points itself surely make sense and probably would be great to see but this game is a finished product with maybe some tweaks, modules and battlepacks in the unclear future. Maybe bfc will give it a credit in one of those but probably not. This game is several years old now. Other companies would have already dumped it and be getting to their next game. 
And though I would myself like to include some of these ideas for historical accuracy, I doubt that it would make that much fun in a quick battle. Getting hammered by roaming drones half of the time is hardly anything tactical challenging. 
I somewhere read that bfc isn't all that fond of air assets getting involved in the ground combat at all. So thats maybe partially why Syrians don't getting hammered by Nato airforce in CMSF2 most of the time, rather being attacked by normal ground forces. So I doubt that bfc will adjust drones to be more common. But they should be at least available for Ukraine too, I give you that. 
 
CMBS may be the weakest game in the series for me too but that's mostly about the lethality of things. Tanks and infantry can be wiped out in an instant if one is not careful enough. 
Often you split your infantry to small spread out teams to reduce casualties by one artillery barrage or a tank round. 
Artillery is more common and deadlier than in any other game in the series. 
So comparing to real events I think bfc nailed the feel of a modern battlefield, while not depicting the historical war entirely. 

Luckily the file horder that I am, I still had an old save file including the Dshk:

 
This file was from january 2021, so something happened here. Your turn.
Edit: I tried to recreate the same date and region of the file in the editor but the MG doesn´t appear.
But the fact that the game still loaded the correct model means that it is still in the game, though not available via quick battle nor editor.

I quoted your post in the bug tracker thread.

Only way to do it is with a target arc (either normal or armor arc). 
For this I always use a 180°arc that goes over the map (so infinite distance), just to be sure. The turret will face the center of the arc so you have to estimate a bit. 
Pro tip: If you later in the turn need the tank to face in another/normal position you can either place a "face" command at the following way point (sets the turret in normal position) or set another arc. 
But be careful with arcs because any enemy unit that is outside of it is often completely ignored with fatal consequences. 
 
Regarding smoke: yes you can set the direction but it is sometimes a bit cumbersome but not much. 
Just place a face command in the direction you want to place the smoke, then order the "pop smoke" directly after. You will see that the blue "face" line will be taken over by the violet "pop smoke" line. But here comes the catch: if you now give the unit a move order afterwards, the facing of the smoke order will reset itself. You can reset it again, nor problem but one should keep this in mind if used. 
 
The best way however is to place move orders first and then go to the procedure as described.
You can order this on every way point you pass through while moving along. 
This comes specially in handy with tanks that have a smoke mortar or (on late german tanks) the "Nahverteidigungswaffe". 
 
I sometimes give them many  short wayoints, like 30 to 50m apart and on each way point they get a "pop smoke" order. They have many smoke bombs with them so they can practically lay out a smoke trail for following vehicles.
You can see this in this short video of mine:
 
 
 

A picture equals a thousand words. 
 

Thank you! Thanks @Kevin2kand @Brille too for helping to confirm that it's supposed to be in the game.

@BFCElvisAre we allowed to ping you for similar issues with other CM games? I have another threads in the CMSF2subforum detailing a similar issue, a unit is missing in quick battle despite it still existing in the scenario editor and there being talk about it being in game on the forums. Would be nice if it was added to some official list of missing units.
 
 

Luckily the file horder that I am, I still had an old save file including the Dshk:

 
This file was from january 2021, so something happened here. Your turn.
Edit: I tried to recreate the same date and region of the file in the editor but the MG doesn´t appear.
But the fact that the game still loaded the correct model means that it is still in the game, though not available via quick battle nor editor.

You´re welcome. I almost doubted myself if it really was a Dshk or if I just misidentified it with the SG43 as it was one of my first CMRT PvP games.
But I remembered that I specifically looked for it to try it out.
 
And while I´m not using it that often it would be sad to have it not in the game. That MG belongs to the soviets as the Ma Deuce belongs to the US americans.
 

For what it is worth, I just did a version check for Specialist Team DShK HMG, in the scenario editor.
CMRT v1.00 does not have the DShK team listed.
CMRT v1.01 / 1.03 / 2.00 / 2.01 / 2.02 / 2.10 all have this DShK team available for purchase
CMRT v2.11 + current 2.12 do not have the DShK team listed.
 
And as side note: CMRT v2.11 + current 2.12 do not have the DP LMG team listed, which was available in all previous versions.
 

Thanks for this! All I could find were old forum posts talking about the DShK, but this screenshot proves that it existed.

I guess now we have to figure out if it was an intentional removal or a reappearance of the bug that caused it to be omitted from the release version.