No DShKs in the game?

[Traitor]

Are there no DShKs in the game? Seems like a bit of an odd omission if so.

Looking at older forum posts, apparently it was removed from the IS-2 for historical reasons, as it was supposedly a post-war addition. However, somebody posted contrary photographic evidence in the same thread, so I'm not sure what's going on there.
 

In older threads from 2014, there is talk about DShK HMG specialist teams that were supposed to be in the game, but accidentally left out due to an error.

Apparently, they were added back into the game in a later patch

However, I can't find any specialist teams with the DShK in the current version of the game. Am I missing something? Is this a reappearance of the bug that caused the DShKs to be omitted? Or were they intentionally removed from the game? If so, why? I'm pretty sure it's not disputed that they were used during the war, it would be an odd decision to remove them.

 

[Brille]

Good find. 

I was about to deny it because I had one with me in a battle once. But that was maybe almost 2 years ago. 

I checked it ingame and I can't find it. Neither in the Guards nor Army formations (specialist teams). 

Even setting different years and months but nada. 

So maybe it was patched out either by accident or intention. 

@BFCElvis

Do you have more insight on that or can check why that is? 

[BFCElvis]

6 hours ago, Brille said:

 

@BFCElvis

Do you have more insight on that or can check why that is? 

Whenever I find myself wondering somefink like this I check the manual. That will usually show availability dates. The Dshk is not listed in either the base game or Fire and Rubble manuals.

[waffelmann]

Yes, it is not listed in the manuals....directly!

 

But on page 3  of the red thunder manual () :

"...

Combat Mission: Red Thunder includes a wide array of historical German and
Soviet equipment that was used on the Eastern Front... and this list will
expand greatly as new Modules and Packs expand the scope of the game!
Equipment new to Combat Mission includes a host of Soviet equipment, in-
cluding:
- T-34 -76 M1942, OT-34, T-34-85, IS-1, IS-2, and T-70M tanks.
- SU-76M, SU-85, SU-122, ISU-122, SU-152, and ISU-152 assault guns.
- M1895 Nagant revolver,TT-30 pistol, Model 1891 rifle, STV-40 rifle,
PPSh,PPS-42, and PPS-43 submachine guns, the DP, DPM, Maxim 1910,
SG43, and DShK machine guns.
- ROKS-3 flamethrower, PTRD anti-tank rifle, 45mm and 76mm anti-tank guns,
76mm infantry gun, 50mm and 82mm mortars, and the 37mm and 85mm
anti-aircraft guns.

..."

 

(yeeees, I know that is not the official list)

Edited July 8, 2023 by waffelmann

[Brille]

1 hour ago, BFCElvis said:

Whenever I find myself wondering somefink like this I check the manual. That will usually show availability dates. The Dshk is not listed in either the base game or Fire and Rubble manuals.

Luckily the file horder that I am, I still had an old save file including the Dshk:

 

This file was from january 2021, so something happened here. Your turn.

Edit: I tried to recreate the same date and region of the file in the editor but the MG doesn´t appear.

But the fact that the game still loaded the correct model means that it is still in the game, though not available via quick battle nor editor.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Brille

[BFCElvis]

4 hours ago, Brille said:

Luckily the file horder that I am, I still had an old save file including the Dshk:

 

This file was from january 2021, so something happened here. Your turn.

Edit: I tried to recreate the same date and region of the file in the editor but the MG doesn´t appear.

But the fact that the game still loaded the correct model means that it is still in the game, though not available via quick battle nor editor.

Let me see if I can get you a more detailed answer.

From the TO&E page on the Red Thunder page:

 

[MikeyD]

The photo up top looks to be a still from a 1950s war movie. 

[Artkin]

What the hell? DSHK In cmrt? 

[Artkin]

By the end of 1943 the Red Army had over  25,000 "Heavy machine guns" on-hand and lost in combat. I assume these mean DSHK's. 

In 1941 there were 3,600 on-hand

1942 there were 9,600 on-hand

1943 there were 19,100 on-hand

and combat losses for the three years adds up to 7,200 guns. 

Add the lost with the on-hand for 1943 and we get 26,300 heavy machine guns. They were growing at an enormous rate. 

Source: Colossus Reborn - Glantz

I hope to see these ingame again. I forget the 1944 organization for a soviet rifle division but I believe the hmgs were located in the AA units. 

Edited July 9, 2023 by Artkin

[Traitor]

12 hours ago, BFCElvis said:

Whenever I find myself wondering somefink like this I check the manual. That will usually show availability dates. The Dshk is not listed in either the base game or Fire and Rubble manuals.

According to the threads from 2014, it was supposed to be in the game, but it was accidentally removed just prior to launch due to some sort of compiling error, and nobody noticed it was missing and forgot about it, but was re-added in a patch.

That would explain why it's not in the manual (it was left out and everyone forgot) but it's in the TO&E page on the website (that was the original intended TO&E) and the patch temporarily restoring it to the game (hence screenshots from @Brille proving that it once existed). There is discussion on the forum about an official prerelease screenshot including DShKs too.

What I think happened is that it was accidentally left out of the original release as stated by Battlefront, restored in a patch in November 2014, but at some point in time between 2021 and 2023 another patch caused some bug which omitted the DShK again. 
 

According to Battlefront the DShK was coded in a weird way that creates a bug that left it out of the game, presumably a later patch created a similar situation once again. I couldn't find any official patch notes removing the DShK from the game, so a bug is the most likely problem here.

[Traitor]

10 hours ago, Brille said:

Luckily the file horder that I am, I still had an old save file including the Dshk:

 

This file was from january 2021, so something happened here. Your turn.

Edit: I tried to recreate the same date and region of the file in the editor but the MG doesn´t appear.

But the fact that the game still loaded the correct model means that it is still in the game, though not available via quick battle nor editor.

Thanks for this! All I could find were old forum posts talking about the DShK, but this screenshot proves that it existed.

I guess now we have to figure out if it was an intentional removal or a reappearance of the bug that caused it to be omitted from the release version.

[Brille]

6 hours ago, Traitor said:

Thanks for this! All I could find were old forum posts talking about the DShK, but this screenshot proves that it existed.

I guess now we have to figure out if it was an intentional removal or a reappearance of the bug that caused it to be omitted from the release version.

You´re welcome. I almost doubted myself if it really was a Dshk or if I just misidentified it with the SG43 as it was one of my first CMRT PvP games.

But I remembered that I specifically looked for it to try it out.

 

And while I´m not using it that often it would be sad to have it not in the game. That MG belongs to the soviets as the Ma Deuce belongs to the US americans.

 

[Kevin2k]

For what it is worth, I just did a version check for Specialist Team DShK HMG, in the scenario editor.

CMRT v1.00 does not have the DShK team listed.

CMRT v1.01 / 1.03 / 2.00 / 2.01 / 2.02 / 2.10 all have this DShK team available for purchase

CMRT v2.11 + current 2.12 do not have the DShK team listed.

 

And as side note: CMRT v2.11 + current 2.12 do not have the DP LMG team listed, which was available in all previous versions.

 

[BFCElvis]

On 7/8/2023 at 12:08 PM, Brille said:

 

This file was from january 2021, so something happened here. Your turn.

I have found the issue. It is not end user error. It is somefink that needs to be fixed and proper authorities have been notified.

 

Thanks for flagging me with this one.

[Brille]

1 hour ago, BFCElvis said:

I have found the issue. It is not end user error. It is somefink that needs to be fixed and proper authorities have been notified.

 

Thanks for flagging me with this one.

Thank you for getting the stone rolling.

But could you please also attent to the problem that @Kevin2k stated ?

I noticed it now myself that the DP lmg is missing in the soviet army and guards formations if you want to buy them as specialist teams.

They are neither to find in the editor, nor in the quick battle generator.

The partisans however have them:

 

My CMRT is the latest version 2.13.

[BFCElvis]

45 minutes ago, Brille said:

Thank you for getting the stone rolling.

But could you please also attent to the problem that @Kevin2k stated ?

I noticed it now myself that the DP lmg is missing in the soviet army and guards formations if you want to buy them as specialist teams.

They are neither to find in the editor, nor in the quick battle generator.

The partisans however have them:

 

My CMRT is the latest version 2.13.

There is a laundry list of missing units. All have been submitted to HQ. Here's the complete list:

Vehicles Missing from Single Vehicle menu

Sturmpanzer IV Brummbär (mid)
Sturmpanzer IV Brummbär (late)
Elefant
Hummel
Pz IIIM (Flame)
Soviet Units missing from Specialist Teams menu

DP LMG (Army and Guards)
DPM LMG (Army and Guards)
DShK HMG (Army and Guards)
German Units missing from Specialist Teams menu

Flamethrower (except Luftwaffe)
LMG34 (Heer and SS)
HMG34 (SS and Volkssturm)
LMG42 (SS and Volkssturm)
HMG42 (Volkssturm)
PaK36(r) 76mm (Heer, SS and Luftwaffe except airborne)
IeG18 75mm (Heer, SS and Luftwaffe armored infantry. Also Heer infantry prior to October and SS infantry prior to February)

 

[Artkin]

Glad to hear thank you!!!!!

[BFCElvis]

31 minutes ago, Artkin said:

Glad to hear thank you!!!!!

I was a little surprised that the list was so long. 

When I hear back from HQ I will let you folks know if any of these are intentional. 

[Traitor]

5 hours ago, BFCElvis said:

I have found the issue. It is not end user error. It is somefink that needs to be fixed and proper authorities have been notified.

 

Thanks for flagging me with this one.

Thank you! Thanks @Kevin2kand @Brille too for helping to confirm that it's supposed to be in the game.

@BFCElvisAre we allowed to ping you for similar issues with other CM games? I have another threads in the CMSF2subforum detailing a similar issue, a unit is missing in quick battle despite it still existing in the scenario editor and there being talk about it being in game on the forums. Would be nice if it was added to some official list of missing units.
 

 

[kohlenklau]

BFC patch production video!

 

[BFCElvis]

1 hour ago, Traitor said:

Thank you! Thanks @Kevin2kand @Brille too for helping to confirm that it's supposed to be in the game.

@BFCElvisAre we allowed to ping you for similar issues with other CM games? I have another threads in the CMSF2subforum detailing a similar issue, a unit is missing in quick battle despite it still existing in the scenario editor and there being talk about it being in game on the forums. Would be nice if it was added to some official list of missing units.
 

 

You can ping me anytime. 

[Redwolf]

20 hours ago, BFCElvis said:

There is a laundry list of missing units. All have been submitted to HQ. Here's the complete list:

Vehicles Missing from Single Vehicle menu

Sturmpanzer IV Brummbär (mid)
Sturmpanzer IV Brummbär (late)
Elefant
Hummel
Pz IIIM (Flame)
Soviet Units missing from Specialist Teams menu

DP LMG (Army and Guards)
DPM LMG (Army and Guards)
DShK HMG (Army and Guards)
German Units missing from Specialist Teams menu

Flamethrower (except Luftwaffe)
LMG34 (Heer and SS)
HMG34 (SS and Volkssturm)
LMG42 (SS and Volkssturm)
HMG42 (Volkssturm)
PaK36(r) 76mm (Heer, SS and Luftwaffe except airborne)
IeG18 75mm (Heer, SS and Luftwaffe armored infantry. Also Heer infantry prior to October and SS infantry prior to February)

 

Is that for the editor or for the quickbattle selector?

[BFCElvis]

51 minutes ago, Redwolf said:

Is that for the editor or for the quickbattle selector?

Should be for both.

[Artkin]

Were the DSHK removed for historical reasons? I don't see them in the Rifle divisions shtat from 1941-Dec. 1944... there were 18 guns and they were all tripod mounted AA guns. Further I didn't see them in the Machine gun artillery battalions from 1943. 

Source - Zaloga Red Army Handbook

[Traitor]

11 hours ago, Artkin said:

Were the DSHK removed for historical reasons? I don't see them in the Rifle divisions shtat from 1941-Dec. 1944... there were 18 guns and they were all tripod mounted AA guns. Further I didn't see them in the Machine gun artillery battalions from 1943. 

Source - Zaloga Red Army Handbook

I think that's the reason for the DShK only being available in the game as a specialist team, historically they weren't mass issued to Rifle Divisions or machine gun battalions. You can find pictures of them from WW2 in both tripod mounted AA roles and wheeled HMG roles, so they were used, but it was probably only for specialist teams instead of standard issue equipment.

PS: I'm pretty sure the DShK AA tripod and wheeled mount are actually the same mounting, the wheels and gunshield can be detached and the carriage converts into a AA tripod. From Forgotten Weapons. So the AA specialist teams could easily convert the gun for the HMG role depending on the need.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Traitor
forgot a word