GhostRider3/3

For info in the CM Shock Force game there are vehicles that have this mesh on them so CM designers can do this already, but Umlaut great work as always!

Hi
It sounded like a fun challenge - so I gave it a try. I made some alpha channels in the original (well, Aris´) skirts to change them from "solid" to mesh-like.
 
Alas, it doesn´t seem to be possible to make a convincing looking wire mesh. At least not for me. The problem is that the skirts still appear to be "solid" when you get a few metres away from the tank - as you can see on the pics. I don´t think this can be solved by modders - I think BFC will have to make some special textures for this kind of mesh to work.
 
But who knows, perhaps someone proves me wrong?
 
 
mesh rek
 
mesh rek2
 
mesh rek3

The next patch should make HE a little more effective.

I agree with Vark along with JK ( who also mentioned it awhile ago ) in that SMG fire is alittle to effective.

I have been playing v1.0 ( patched ), and think Small Arms in general is lethal enough, and from what I understand it's even more so in v2.0
Many players can loose upwards of %50 during a scenario, and think nothing of it...I can't pin-point why, but I think it has something to do with Units Spotting or Reacting to quickly, or the Suppression to Casualty ratio differences, or Firefights just develope to quickly, etc.

I can see why in a CMx2 'Campaigns' troops dont carry over from battle to battle ( instead you get different troop dispositions each scenario ), because there wouldn't be anyone left to carry over.

Joe

I don't think that 60mm mortar ammo. I think it's bazooka rounds.
 
I've played around with the ammo dumps, but only for the Germans. I can't remember if there were any mortar rounds, but when you pick the supply platoon from the units in the editor, you can set whether it's an "infantry" ammo supply or a "weapons" ammo supply.

I don't mind admitting to taking a bit of a beating in the first mission. The buildings tended not to suffer much in the way of damage no matter how much of a pounding I gave them. And the paras cut my troops up when I tried storming their positions. I suffered a Tactical Defeat.

@Ian  yep... many German and British Beers have been chugged while cursing at the Chaos.  Its a blast, and  I really have no complaints at all.  The entire Battlefront Series is superior to really anything out there.

Optics are mounted in the mantle so large calibre strikes on the mantle can damage them. This is only a noticed issue if your mantlet armour is thick enough vs the guns it faces that the worse thing that happens is the sight breaks up due to non penetrating hits.
 
Hamptmann Bollert OC, I abt, Pz reg 2, report 9-19 October 1943 : The telescopes of the T.Z.F 12 gun sights break apart as a result of hits on the gun mantlet. The expenditure of protective lens for the T.F.Z 12 is very high. ( 1995 Jentz pg 138).
 
There's a reason why gunsights tend to be roof mounted nowadays. Note one of the features of the proposed series production Panther schmalturm was a periscope gun sight, so they knew there was a design flaw in mounting sights in the gun mantlet.
 
The long 7,5cm was also recorded to have been put out of action by AT rifle penetrators bulging the interior of the barrel rendering it inoperable.

Another thing to consider is movement.  I think, form reading your post, that your Panthers were moving forward while the T34s were waiting.  I would expect that tanks sitting still at the edge of a treeline facing some open ground would spot moving tanks coming towards them much easier than the other way around.  Buttoned or un buttoned I think the advantage of being still in overwatch vs the disadvantage of moving would trump the TC's position.

Ghostrider - good to read you are enjoying this. As Skwabie states there is a 6th mission already in the campaign - I'm not sure how you will have missed it.
 
I made the large master map for missions 1-5 as well as then making the first two missions.
 
I must admit they were challenging missions to make, given the need for them to be enjoyable and yet challenging for a wide range of players. The additional requirement to ensure that some Red Army forces exited the maps in good order was particularly tricky to get right. In the end I got it working pretty well for armour, but the infantry units stand little chance in getting off the map given the distance to be covered and open nature of the maps.
 
I think it's fair to say that of all the missions I've made to date only one mission was harder to get right than these two, and that's in Black Sea so you'll have to wait for that one. 
 
Deep Spoilers
Both M1 and M2 have 19 x T-34 in play together with the 2 ATG on each map. These are different units and so in these two missions both are at full strength. To kill 13 and 17 of these respectively is probably as close to perfect as you can get, given some units start to move off map very early in proceedings, allowing for trigger placement and attacker options.
 
Most comments on these two missions are regarding how tough they are, so if nothing else you show it can be done with minor German losses - a good result.
 
P

Thank you for your posts,
 
I was just a bit dumbfounded when I had a German tank unbuttoned take 4-5 hits.... stayed unbuttoned and was "OK"  never suppressed.. and not once returned fire.  I could not replicate this in doing 20 tests in open ground at the same distance of 1740 meters. using the same crew types.
 
Anyways its like beating a dead horse.. lol the game is great.. has some quirks.. and some strange AI issues from time to time.. but I am not complaining.. just thought it was uncanny at best.  I am finding most of the maps are meta-gamed to the defense... which makes sense vs AI as it makes you think more and think of options.

GhostRider3/3
 
You are not alone in raising concerns about the spotting mechanics in this game, and the one you specifically mention....unbuttoned German tanks vs Russian tanks...was one I had already raised a few months back.  I have experienced the unbuttoned stationary German tanks in essentially an ambush position failing to spot advancing Russian tanks that spot and fire at the German tanks as if the laws of LOS and spotting do not apply to both tanks equally.
 
Your test findings do nothing to dispel these concerns.

Screenshots always help in these cases, but off the top of my head - if your tanks were in trees and the enemy were not - remember that tanks are substantially higher up than your infantry and this can often put their heads in amongst the foliage.
 
If you have trees toggled to "trunks only", turn them back on, then hop your camera view down to the tanks and see if you can see what they cannot.

It is my impression that the Battle of the Bulge name is mostly limited to english speaking countries (In danish it is called "the Ardennes Offensive")

ATG guns are a B!+ch.  I find them much harder to handle than an enemy tank (Wittman said something along those lines, I beieve). With a tank you can see when you've K.O.d it.  With an ATG you can pound the area with HE and think nothing can survive it - but unless you see the K.O.d ATG you never really know.  As said, one poor survivor can man that gun to amazing effect, and the ROF doesn't seem to be negatively impacted very much.
I have to pull back and remind myself that this is a game/simulation.  A few rough edges where things seem 'off' don't matter much.  I use more HE now than perhaps a real-life battle would take.  That ATG gun will be knocked out, scattered to scrap and there will be nothing resembling a human form left of the crew before I get done with it.  I keep suppressing fire on the position unless or until I see that dead gun!

Depends on how many shots the Panthers get. At that range and against a moving target the large majority of the first shots should miss. But accuracy increases rapidly with each shot taken so if they are getting 2 or 3 shots off there is a pretty good chance of a hit.

As for penetration, a Panther will easily penetrate a T-34 at that range except on some parts of the T-34/85 front turret.

They are all more or less the same. A wide variety. Have you tried sorting the scenarios by increasing size and picking some of the smaller ones. No matter which game/module the smallest are very manageable.

So I have played this Campaign 3 times.  I found the maps ingeniously crafted.  and very difficult to spot almost anything from a distance, and found the Russian infantry most troublesome even after taking point blank HE fire from my tanks.
 
#1. Radzymin "Across the Rzadza" Right Flank Attack.  Awesome map, nice little surprise with 3 T-34/85 in your rear if you don't spot them.  Getting across the River you will have to be patient.  The 2 AT guns are hard to spot.. even after 3 different artillery bombardments one was still operational and took out a Pz.IV tank.  The town across the river is integrated  with a lot of troops.. all packing SMG's.. so close in fighting is bloody at best.. even after 2 bombardments of heavy artillery its hard to dislodge the enemy or even break them. 
In the end.. lost 1 Tank, 1 SPW 251/9 7KIA and 15 WIA. "Saving the game helps.."  Enemy 110KIA, 25WIA 13 T-34 and 2 trucks
 
I performed a 2 Prong attack, Discovered the 3 Hidden Tanks in a Grove of Trees by one of my dismounted Platoons... The other side went through pretty much an empty town.. and the tanks dispersed on the far right side.  There was a brief Tank vs Tank engagement where we knocked out 4 T-34/85 in a clearing on the Right side of the map.. 2AT guns in a small wooded area.. was problematic and delayed my entire infantry and advance by about 30min. or more.  There was another brief tank engagement to across the River near the Rail line.. and in the town across the River... this is where I lost the SPW. and a couple crew men on 3 different tanks.. luckily I had 5 Panzers in Over watch  that quickly dispatched the T-34.85's.  The Town across the River was pounded by Tanks, and Artillery.. however this is where all my KIA, and most of my WIA occurred.
 
#2.Radzymin Town and Rail Yard: Right Flank Attack:  Again Awesome map. 
Again I performed a 2 prong attack.. however because you have to wait for KG Baker.. I was unsure of how I was going to do this at first.  Luckily I set up 2 tanks on the Far left set up area near a small farm hamlet.  surrounded by trees.. they would eventually take out 2 T-34/85 in a wood line adjacent the road.. my MRA  Main Route of approach through the suburbs and then into the City itself.  I sent an entire platoon of Pz. IV tanks to the far right to hook up with KG Baker and support that side.. which would be my Right Hook.. my main advance as I found the suburbs crawling with Infantry and tanks.. Lost 2 Vehicles in the suburbs, and 1 AFV (Halftrack).  Lost one of my PzIV tanks to the right flank.. as they have around 5 T-34/85 in perfect position covering the landscape up to the treeline and swamp area.  3 T-34/85 left the area where KG Baker initially arrived from.. I had gotten some of my tanks in position. by then and took them out..
 
In Short it came down to house to house fighting in the city, point blank Tank fire and Artillery to extract the enemy from their positions.
In the end I lost 2 Pz IV, 12KIA, 25WIA 2 Vehicles and 1 AFV..  the enemy 129KIA, 169 WIA or missing. 17 T-34 and 3 vehicles.
 
#3 Dybow Kolonia Left Flank attack:  Another great map and the first use of the Panthers in mass.
 
Again 2 Prong attack.. far left and far right.. the middle is obviously a killing Zone...  To make a long story short.. the T-34/85 can spot very good inside woods.. lol  something that my tanks cannot do.  Anyways. the Left side you will be surprised very quickly by two T-34's so use cover and the defilades as much as you can.. SMOKE is your friend.. and so is blasting suspected wood lines where there may be AT guns or Tanks.  USE your TRP as much as you can if you need to... the pre sighted TRP's are a godsend.
 
Be wary of the wooded tree line to your right flank.. it looked suspicious in the beginning anyways.. so read your mission briefings.  I blasted it with heavy Artillery.. and when troops were spotted leaving.. I knew there was more there.. small tank engagement.. and lost a Panther.. close range.. about 500m  Range is your friend.. but they are so close to your set up area... also a crazy Duck shooting incident happened as on the Right flank about 6 or so T-34 were basically crossing the T if you will.. right in front of an entire Company of Panthers.. needless to say.. not one Russian tank survived the onslaught.
 
The outcome was 12KIA 12 WIA, 2 vehicles 1 AFV and 1 Panther. (crew survived)  Enemy 101 KIA, 166 WIA or Missing, 33 vehicles, and 23 tanks destroyed. NOTE:  2 prong attack, used defilades, smoke for covering your advances, and flushing out the enemy.. there was a left Side tank engagement to the RIght side of the map.. T-34/85 hidden in the woods that can miraculously shoot out of a wooded area with great effect... although no Panther was destroyed.. the Panthers returned fire and won only because I brought more guns to bear per target.. Optics is the first thing to go..LOL even though the Germans could repair them in about 15min or less.
 
#4 Attack on Cimene :  Right Flank Attack.. Damn.. Right Flank again....
This was a short engagement... again a two prong attack..
My losses were 5KIA, 5 WIA, and 2 AFV lost..   The enemy lost 26 KIA, 50 WIA or Missing, 22 Vehicles, 2 T-34/85 and 3 AFV.  
NOTE:  Its obvious the main road is a Nightmare... and there was no way I was going down the road.. so I had the left side Prong take all Objectives. until I could secure the RIght flank itself.. it took a long time to get my Right side Flank to the town of Cimene, but there was a short crisp engagement.. and that was that.  First encounter with Su-85's and they took out a couple of my AFV's  but they are susceptible to Artillery.
 
#5 Stary Jankow.  Left flank Attack:  This scenario is a REAL Mother..Focker.. LOL
 
Again 2 Prong Attack.. far Left side, and Far Right side.
Left Side.. 2 Platoon of Panthers, and 1 Company of Infantry.
Right Side 2 Platoon of Panthers, 1 Company of Infantry, and also the Recon Platoon.  The Middle is covered by the remaining Panthers which really cant see crap.. sucky Over watch.. but I was not going to move much more forward as they said the enemy had TD's  which meant SU-85, SU-122 or ATG.
 
Left flank.. All I can say is the 2 ATG in the fracking trench are SUPER HEROS.. the trench looked suspicious.. and had intermittent contacts there.. so I barraged them with 3 different bombardments of 120 and 81mm mortar fire.. yep they lived and took out two Panthers with 57mm ZIS guns.. and another Panther was rendered useless as the main gun was put out of action.  infantry attack.. they use canister shot.. the guns are flanked by a HQ SMG squad and a HMG on the right side.  It took the better part of a Platoon with Heavy casualties to succeed there.  WTF.. is all I had to say.. they can see you.. you can not see them.. even with infantry watching the place knowing they are there.. nothing.. you move. you die.. you still can not see them.. LOL  I had to have a beer after several saved games.  The Touch area.. on the Left side objective is covered by infantry in building and two short barreled well hidden Infantry guns that can possibly immobilze your tanks.. or kill crew very fast.. keep buttoned up.. and artillery the area.
 
Right side is a disaster area.. LOL