German Campaign in Market Garden

[Volltreffer]

I finished my first play-through of the Axis campaign earlier this week and ended up with a total victory...

I was just wondering if the number of missions in the campaign is dependent on results in each battle... I.E. if I sweep all before me I can end the campaign in less engagements...? Or is it a fixed number of battles no matter what your success, or lack thereof?

I retook Son in the final battle (wasn't aware that it was the final one), and was rather disappointed that there weren't any more battles after this.

[Hister]

There is no mission branching depending on your success since campaign is about independent events that took place at roughly the same time. So yes, it's a fixed number.

[GhostRider3/3]

The First mission for the Germans I get completely murdered... lol  British Para are awesome, just like soviet MG squads, lots of damage quick.  Germans just cant match the firepower.  I even consolidated all my forces each time... bounding, but there are so many close quarters area, that once the Germans are opened up on.. half the squad is gone.  Anyone have any tactics or luck on the first mission?

[A Canadian Cat]

I have not played this mission but in general the way to deal with those guys is HE.  What I try to do is find where they are with as few guys as possible and then bring up something that can put HE on the buildings they are in.  Be it tanks, Shreks, mortars or heavier artillery.  The only other thing to do is possition your MGs so they can hit the enemy locations from 200m or further out where the SMG fire is not effective.

 

Yeah I know easier said than done a large part of the time.

 

I am currently fighting the Sten gun guys in Lonsdale's Block and I have stuff runing out of HE and MG teams on empty.  I still have a ton of ground to cover too - yuck.

[Warts 'n' all]

I don't mind admitting to taking a bit of a beating in the first mission. The buildings tended not to suffer much in the way of damage no matter how much of a pounding I gave them. And the paras cut my troops up when I tried storming their positions. I suffered a Tactical Defeat.

[GhostRider3/3]

I don't mind admitting to taking a bit of a beating in the first mission. The buildings tended not to suffer much in the way of damage no matter how much of a pounding I gave them. And the paras cut my troops up when I tried storming their positions. I suffered a Tactical Defeat.

Same here.. the HE from the Nebelwerfers do little damage even to the exposed troops and the one Stug.III you have only has I believe 28-30 rounds of HE.  I know in the Scenario planning it explains you wont be able to attack and take everything, So I may rethink my strategy, save my men and take control of two... maybe three if there is enough HE left in the Stug.III.  the AA halftrack does  do some damage, but not enough really to penetrate the buildings.

[womble]

Ah! Now I'm certain which was the first scenario. The one in the town. I found the Drilling AA halftrack to be extremely lethal. Bringing it to bear was difficult, in places, but it cleared out the buildings it shot at. I found you have to be 100% meticulous in your use of sneaking, hiding and cover arcs, but when you do that you can bring sudden and superior infantry firepower to bear on Allied positions and drive them out or kill them.

[Warts 'n' all]

I'll bear those things in mind, womble, the next time I give it a go. 

[GhostRider3/3]

Ah! Now I'm certain which was the first scenario. The one in the town. I found the Drilling AA halftrack to be extremely lethal. Bringing it to bear was difficult, in places, but it cleared out the buildings it shot at. I found you have to be 100% meticulous in your use of sneaking, hiding and cover arcs, but when you do that you can bring sudden and superior infantry firepower to bear on Allied positions and drive them out or kill them.

Going to try that approach.. time is of the essence, but I would rather preserver my men then risk getting obliterated by smg fire.  Will see how the 3rd time goes.

[womble]

Going to try that approach.. time is of the essence, but I would rather preserver my men then risk getting obliterated by smg fire.  Will see how the 3rd time goes.

Very wise. Troops that have been obliterated cannot sieze an objective, most of the time... Force preservation has tactical as well as strategic/operational uses. Just don't tell C3K Ken that...

[sandman2575]

The First mission for the Germans I get completely murdered... lol  British Para are awesome, just like soviet MG squads, lots of damage quick.  Germans just cant match the firepower.  I even consolidated all my forces each time...

 

Yeah, it sure seems like the 'default' set-up -- in which you're supposed to attack with 2 groups along different axes -- is deliberately misleading. I got completely murdered the first couple tries, using this approach, and only had success when I consolidated all forces along one line of assault -- the route parallel to the bridge, alongside the school, positioning my MGs in the tall buildings at the 'safe' end of the lane, and judicious use of the StuG and, even more valuable in this scenario, the AA halftrack.

 

I've only managed a Tactical Victory at best on this one.  The succeeding missions are a lot easier.

[Melchior]

Yeah, the mission briefing warned me from the start that trying to take all the objectives would not go well. I conceded the school and row-houses pretty much from the start and concentrated on the other objectives. Afterwards it turns out the guys holding the row-houses were not armed very heavily, and the row-houses had ideal firing lines on all the remaining objectives. Course' at the time I felt my StuG was key to the mission and anywhere I couldn't really go with it or take advantage of its firepower was going to doom me. That also ended up being true. 

Edited January 8, 2015 by CaptHawkeye

[GhostRider3/3]

Yeah, it sure seems like the 'default' set-up -- in which you're supposed to attack with 2 groups along different axes -- is deliberately misleading. I got completely murdered the first couple tries, using this approach, and only had success when I consolidated all forces along one line of assault -- the route parallel to the bridge, alongside the school, positioning my MGs in the tall buildings at the 'safe' end of the lane, and judicious use of the StuG and, even more valuable in this scenario, the AA halftrack.

 

I've only managed a Tactical Victory at best on this one.  The succeeding missions are a lot easier.

Nice... Idiotic me... I knew looking at the map longer and planning better this would be the better approach.. But like some grunts.. I like to learn the hard way..  Loading it up now.. third time should be a charm.. here is hoping for at least a tactical victory.

 

Semper Fi.

[GhostRider3/3]

Yeah, it sure seems like the 'default' set-up -- in which you're supposed to attack with 2 groups along different axes -- is deliberately misleading. I got completely murdered the first couple tries, using this approach, and only had success when I consolidated all forces along one line of assault -- the route parallel to the bridge, alongside the school, positioning my MGs in the tall buildings at the 'safe' end of the lane, and judicious use of the StuG and, even more valuable in this scenario, the AA halftrack.

 

I've only managed a Tactical Victory at best on this one.  The succeeding missions are a lot easier.

I actually found the missions more difficult.

After the first mission.. which I could only achieve a tactical victory  the next 3 were complete defeats.

 

Maybe you can explain your method, because I found the German campaign to ridiculous.  The Kreigsmarine, low ammo, no support with 1 company attacking Crack troops that happen to be able to have kill zones on all points of the map.. I did that mission 8 times, every single time complete defeat, too many casualties.  Its obviously correct to make them green, vs Crack Veteran troops but they are virtually in my experience at least worthless.  Attack from the left, 3 points where the US forces see you and suppress the advance.  Right flank same thing although the Germans can be attacked by 3-5 buildings.  Center... out of the question,  Using smoke was a joke as it goes back up the hill in your face, so you cant even cover your advance...

 

The Ambush mission I found to be a joke as well as the map is perfectly created for advancing armor, there are extremely few points to even put the 88 Flak gun, and the AI usually goes in the wood on the far right flank where the lightly armed Germans are overrun quickly by the mass infantry... which can spot your hiding defending troops pretty effectively from both sides of the map.. I have played that about 5 times and at the most I can get 2 Sherman tanks and a few of the AC.. no thanks to the 88 which is large and gets suppressed easily and then destroyed.  so you effectively have to use infantry and by that time they are mostly pinned down, suppressed or already annihilated, as the designer created the AI wonderfully to advance the scouts and infantry ahead of the tanks making sure that any Panzer Shrek teams, and infantry would be dealt with by the time the tanks roll.

 

Great maps, I like the use of the interesting equipment but if anyone has any pointers on how to actually make it thru the campaign at least maps 2-4 that would be great.  I feel they should have been stand alone missions and not a campaign. If the missions were so important as to affect the entire campaign in which the allied forces would make it over the Rhine I would have expected different scenarios.  I guess I feel that the German campaign was designed with only maybe a couple ways of winning, the maps themselves do not offer much for the player to do as it seems possibly there are only one way to achieve victory.  I guess when I create maps, they offer the player multiple ways to achieve their goals.  I feel like the German campaign was like going thru a tunnel, while on the other end is the enemy.. not that many choices on how to win.  Like the German defense of the bridge,  The right side of the bridge gets completely overwhelmed in infantry at the end, and by the time you get reinforcements they can not cross the bridge because its already being attacked on the left.. Right side gets overwhelmed and again no time mission ends and you get what you get. 

 

Thanks for posting any hints, although I am a veteran player, I don't mind being critiqued.  I guess I perhaps do not enjoy such linear maps where there is only one way to successfully achieve a victory.

Edited January 13, 2015 by GhostRider3/3

[womble]

The Kriegsmarine was difficult. The HMGs were the key for me, and I still didn't get a big victory. You can find places to suppress the buildings with MG fire where the airborne return fire is ineffective, and you've got enough firepower to oversuppress discrete points (so don't use it all, to give the enemy chance to break and flee into the open...) to advance into.

The roadblock scenario wasn't much of a problem. I moved the 88 off-road so it wasn't immediately visible to any arriving reinforcements, and it did pretty solid execution on any and all armour til it ran out of ammo (because I had to let it shoot through the woodland, so there were a number of duds. Ambushing the onrushing mech infantry in the woods worked a treat, using the high ground to make the stem of the L-shaped ambush and mines to protect the end of the hills.

[Warts 'n' all]

When I played this campaign, I suffered 3 defeats, got 2 draws and only managed to win one mission "Hells Highway", and that was only a Minor Victory, and yet when the campaign finished it ended as a "Draw". I was expecting some kind of defeat, so was pleasantly surprised.

[sandman2575]

I've been completely absorbed in Red Thunder for a while, so my memory of "A Brief Moment in Time" is pretty hazy -- I should perhaps have said "the immediately subsequent mission(s) are easier" -- although yes I certainly recall the mission where you use the Kriegsmarine conscripts being difficult -- but the mission where you have to fend off the assault by the British paras along that highway being easy (the ol' "AI good on the defense, on the offensive, not so much" issue.)

[Melchior]

I had the same problem Ghost Rider had with Mission 3 of the German campaign. I found it pretty much impossible. The Kriegsmarine simply don't have enough support. I was totally dismayed to see I didn't get so much as a way to generate some smoke to at least enable them to approach the village. The map is pretty linear too so maneuvering options are very poor. Pre-attack recon ended up being a bad idea because the recon squad has MP40s I need and they're too easily lost doing their job.

 

I played through some rough missions with REDFOR in Shock Force but this one really took the cake. No force was more miserable to work with in any of the games than the Kriegsmarine. No wonder the Heer considered Goebbels Volksturm regiments a bad idea before they even started fighting. Barely or inadequately trained troops are simply no match against seasoned veterans. Not unless they get heaps of support. 

Edited January 14, 2015 by CaptHawkeye

[db_zero]

I decided to try this out based on the thread. I restarted the first mission and the second go around seems to be going better. I Picked one spot near the bridge to use the rockets and a point target for the arty. I think it killed, wounded and panicked some of the Paras as they ran around outside the buildings and let themselves get mowed down.

 

I also made sure to use the one assault gun and AA halftrack. I've moved around the AA HT and used it to shoot at some Paras in the 3 level of a building that was using enfilade against my troops. I also piled squads into the upper levels of a building to continue to hose down the Paras. Unfortunately the way the spotting and fire mechanics work, I can no longer use the AA HT against these pesky Paras and the shootout between my troops and the AI is not going too well in my favor, but is probably good enough.

 

I usually splt up my squads, but I find keeping them together and just concentrating fire at a few positions works better.

 

I'm not really surprised at the British Paras devasting firepower. I've played a few h2h games and the British Paras are just tought to fight against. The Stens provide plenty of firepower and combined with the high morale and experience of the Paras makes them very tought opponents-especially in urban settings.

 

As for the German Kreigsmarine...well they are not US Marines, that's for sure. They would have been better off on ships or U-Boats where they belong.

Edited January 14, 2015 by db_zero

[womble]

I usually splt up my squads, but I find keeping them together and just concentrating fire at a few positions works better.

This is a bit of a surprise. Usually, especially against high fire volumes, concentrating entire squads in one floor of a building just results in more casualties for little or no improvement in outgoing firepower... I found I could keep the squads' fire power concentrated even with split squads, for the most part. I went up the river road and through the cattle market.

[GhostRider3/3]

_{Thanks for the advice, I don't think I will replay the Kreigsmarine scenario.. it was too linear, no support, and if the scenario requires that much "gamey play" to find the right position to employ the HMG...then to me it really does not feel realistic.  Scenario's in my opinion should be created to let the player be creative, not restricted to a couple avenues on obtaining a victory.  Anyways the ambush one I will try again, however I feel that it is abit gamey as well in my opinion.   I do appreciated the time involved to create these maps... lord knows I have spent weeks-months sometimes just creating one.}

 

_{Thanks for the hints... will try again.}

[Melchior]

Well I don't know about *all* of that. I'd just have liked maybe something to get through the mission. But I don't think that one missions was going to derail my whole campaign and I considered it more of an educational experience than anything. I wouldn't call the scenario anything short of realistic. Indeed, the performance of the Kriegsmarine in that mission is 100% what I expected. It just didn't make me pull out any less of my hair. 

 

I found the KM adequate for defensive work, such as in the next missions where you have to defend the bridge from Airborne attacks. 

[GhostRider3/3]

Well I don't know about *all* of that. I'd just have liked maybe something to get through the mission. But I don't think that one missions was going to derail my whole campaign and I considered it more of an educational experience than anything. I wouldn't call the scenario anything short of realistic. Indeed, the performance of the Kriegsmarine in that mission is 100% what I expected. It just didn't make me pull out any less of my hair. 

 

I found the KM adequate for defensive work, such as in the next missions where you have to defend the bridge from Airborne attacks. 

True....

 

I basically scrubbed the KM attack mission and restarted from where they defend the bridge.  It is interesting at the last minute they have almost 3 platoons that devastate the one side of the bridge leave not much time to retake that side.  Anyways again just another odd scenario but it is challenging and I like that.

[LukeFF]

They would have been better off on ships or U-Boats where they belong.

 

Well, by 1944 the German surface fleet and U-boat arm was a very faint shadow of what it once was. Yeah, using them as infantry wasn't exactly ideal, but they weren't doing much sailing on the high seas by this stage of the war.

[Warts 'n' all]

I'm not sure how many of the Kriegsmarine who took part in the Market-Garden fighting would have been fit for " sailing on the high seas". I think that most of them were trainees and based at Royal Netherlands Naval Schools that the Nazis had taken over. There were obviously some officers, and guard detachments, who were happy to "see action", but I suspect that most of the fighting was done by relative youngsters who wished that their training was happening back in Kiel, Wilhelmshaven, or wherever, back in Germany.