57mm Zis-2 is a SOB

[GhostRider3/3]

Say for the life of me, I cant remember if there was two different versions of this gun represented in the game. because the in game version, the 57mm ATG looks different then the ones I have looked up.

 

One of my issues if the same 57mm Zis gun is the same I have been reading about with its 13 foot barrel length, how in the hell can a crew that has been shot up, mortared be able to completely maneuver this large piece within 30 seconds, fire at two Panther tanks, disabling both main guns in approximately a minute and a half..  The Range of the Panthers were 550 meters. 

 

I know the front of the Panther gun mantel is 110mm.  I had to look up the Russian gun Penetration values.. for this RAMBO crew... God bless them, it was some nice shooting.. but holy Jesus... what the hell. 

 

Anyways.. my only guess is the weapon is using APCR projectile BR-271P, not sure how common the  round was for the soviets.

 

So anyone else yet gone up against Rambo crew's?

[Bulletpoint]

I've noticed the same about heavy weapons, especially mortar crews continuing to fire even if under mortar fire themselves. Seen a couple of other people post about the same.

[GhostRider3/3]

Nice, I was just wondering if I was the only one experiening Rambo crews... I just found it hard to believe the Crew of the 57mmZis could rotate the gun.. which has a long barrel 180 degrees, rapid fire the gun within 30 seconds.  The crew fired at two Panthers penetrating the front turret mantel at 480-550m.. doing this under fire from 81mm mortars all around them, and taking direct fire from both Panthers.  Just seemed nuts, but I guess the Soviet crew deserves some medals.

[Bulletpoint]

Did you check the quality of the troops after the battle?

[GhostRider3/3]

Did you check the quality of the troops after the battle?

Both were Regular, anyways, lesson learned yet again, that it takes sometimes an entire battery of Mortars, 4 tanks and a platoon of men to take on 2 ATG's  Hell I don't think I have ever seen a German 75mm pak/40 rotate 180 degrees in 30 seconds.  I could be wrong, I may have to simulate some tests

[76mm]

Sounds like you've stumbled upon some Heroes of the Soviet Union...

[Vanir Ausf B]

The next patch should make HE a little more effective.

[Kommissar]

I recently saw the movie Fury, where a handful of Shermans attack an ATG battery and IIRC correctly the ATGs manage to miss 3 or 4 rounds of fire only to get obliterated when the Shermans return fire.  I remember thinking if this were CM, the ATGs would have taken out the tanks within 30 seconds, with the tanks maybe spotting 1 of the ATGs, and the artillery barrage that followed would likely wound a couple of loaders on the ATGs. 

 

My major pet peeve with ATGs at the moment is how - and I appreciate this is anecdotal - it seems like there's always one guy who manages to survive the hellish onslaught of HE and services the gun just fine by himself a few minutes later. 

[GhostRider3/3]

I recently saw the movie Fury, where a handful of Shermans attack an ATG battery and IIRC correctly the ATGs manage to miss 3 or 4 rounds of fire only to get obliterated when the Shermans return fire.  I remember thinking if this were CM, the ATGs would have taken out the tanks within 30 seconds, with the tanks maybe spotting 1 of the ATGs, and the artillery barrage that followed would likely wound a couple of loaders on the ATGs. 

 

My major pet peeve with ATGs at the moment is how - and I appreciate this is anecdotal - it seems like there's always one guy who manages to survive the hellish onslaught of HE and services the gun just fine by himself a few minutes later. 

LOL that is totally true.  I counted the number of Mortar Rounds and Panther shots... (not sure if tanks actually leave a crater so maybe they were just mortar rounds.  1st gun took no less then 9 near misses out of 25 rounds,.. do not know exactly how many panther near misses. ( its hard to believe looking out the Optics and view ports.. directly right in front of the tank, that they never could see a muzzle flash, or determine the exact location of the gun... it was 380m to their direct front, in short grass, in a defilade... so that was the main factor I guess.. but the commander is high on the tank, you would think he would have a better angle)  anyways the 2nd gun took 10 out of 28 rounds fired.  The second gun was knocked out by direct fire from a Panther... after a 8 min battle.

 

One other thing of note.. Russian SMG squads are from the same DNA as Chuck Norris... I actually am at a loss dealing with Soviet infantry.  In different scenarios, its hard to sneak up on them, they see you before you see them, however I am the one always advancing so that's probably why, however even with HQ, and spotter units in over watch, looking in the direction of my advance, still see nothing, so I have to spend an enormous amount of resources using artillery and direct fire, because I have no faith at all with my infantry.  They never spot anything quick enough, even on Hunt....sometimes even defensively the soviet infantry will get first shots.. even though they are advancing....  Still fun, not complaining, but Soviet infantry are far superior unless beaten to a pulp.. even then the single soldier or crew, turns into Rambo with their SMG's and will cut a german squad in half... the average is 2-4 casualties

 

Anyways, I guess I need a tactics change while advancing on the enemy.  But I must say the Russian 57mm Zis gun is very much a lethal threat to Pretty much any German vehicle from the flank.. and was surprised at its penetrating power on the front Gun Mantel of the Panther at a range of 480m.. and to another Panther at 375m, again penetrating the Front Gun Mantel.

Edited December 19, 2014 by GhostRider3/3

[Atago]

I recently saw the movie Fury, where a handful of Shermans attack an ATG battery and IIRC correctly the ATGs manage to miss 3 or 4 rounds of fire only to get obliterated when the Shermans return fire.  I remember thinking if this were CM, the ATGs would have taken out the tanks within 30 seconds, with the tanks maybe spotting 1 of the ATGs, and the artillery barrage that followed would likely wound a couple of loaders on the ATGs. 

 

My major pet peeve with ATGs at the moment is how - and I appreciate this is anecdotal - it seems like there's always one guy who manages to survive the hellish onslaught of HE and services the gun just fine by himself a few minutes later. 

ATG guns are a B!+ch.  I find them much harder to handle than an enemy tank (Wittman said something along those lines, I beieve). With a tank you can see when you've K.O.d it.  With an ATG you can pound the area with HE and think nothing can survive it - but unless you see the K.O.d ATG you never really know.  As said, one poor survivor can man that gun to amazing effect, and the ROF doesn't seem to be negatively impacted very much.

I have to pull back and remind myself that this is a game/simulation.  A few rough edges where things seem 'off' don't matter much.  I use more HE now than perhaps a real-life battle would take.  That ATG gun will be knocked out, scattered to scrap and there will be nothing resembling a human form left of the crew before I get done with it.  I keep suppressing fire on the position unless or until I see that dead gun!

[Kommissar]

"One other thing of note.. Russian SMG squads are from the same DNA as Chuck Norris... I actually am at a loss dealing with Soviet infantry.  In different scenarios, its hard to sneak up on them, they see you before you see them, however I am the one always advancing so that's probably why, however even with HQ, and spotter units in over watch, looking in the direction of my advance, still see nothing, so I have to spend an enormous amount of resources using artillery and direct fire, because I have no faith at all with my infantry.  They never spot anything quick enough, even on Hunt....sometimes even defensively the soviet infantry will get first shots.. even though they are advancing....  Still fun, not complaining, but Soviet infantry are far superior unless beaten to a pulp.. even then the single soldier or crew, turns into Rambo with their SMG's and will cut a german squad in half... the average is 2-4 casualties"

 

 

Yeah, there were a lot of posts about this issue in the past, particularly as it relates to how to clear Soviet SMG infantry out of the woods.  As you said, even one demoralized infantry-man can significantly reduce the combat effectiveness of a platoon in a few seconds.  I infer from your post about sneaking up on them that you're in close quarters.  The consenus in the previous posts was that you should do everything in your power to avoid close-quarters battles with the Soviets, even on seemingly favourable conditions (e.g. you outnumber them, they're retreating, etc.).  If you find yourself in the woods, you want to make use of indirect fire commands.

 

Edited December 19, 2014 by Kommissar

[GhostRider3/3]

:Yeah, there were a lot of posts about this issue in the past, particularly as it relates to how to clear Soviet SMG infantry out of the woods.  As you said, even one demoralized infantry-man can significantly reduce the combat effectiveness of a platoon in a few seconds.  I infer from your post about sneaking up on them that you're in close quarters.  The consenus in the previous posts was that you should do everything in your power to avoid close-quarters battles with the Soviets, even on seemingly favourable conditions (e.g. you outnumber them, they're retreating, etc.).  If you find yourself in the woods, you want to make use of indirect fire commands."

 

True... I feel sorta like I am being gamey.. firing HE rounds like no tomorrow, the consensus is correct.. I do try and avoid soviet infantry, however when you have to take a position.. you nearly have to obliterate the area... its much different then the Normandy side of things.

[sand digger]

Good to see that  AT guns works something like they should now because in CM Normandy it was ridiculous, hidden AT guns being spotted and destroyed by fast moving Shermans before they fired a shot. Threw the game and it's nice box away after a few experiences like that.

 

Recall seeing some official Russian AT gun tank kill figures for their various gun types, around 2.5 - 3 over the life of a medium gun from memory.

[Hister]

sand digger, that AT gun issue was fixed in CMBN already. It might be the time to undust that game of yours. 

[hm_stanley]

sadly.. this is a game and the mechanics are sometimes a bit.. well.. worrisome.  I had two Tigers knocked out by one 57mm Zis at 400m (side shots mind you) slight after a Nerberwerfer 300mm swarm on the gun formation (general area, at least I heard the guns).. The barrage only managed to wound three of the gun crew and knockout NONE of the guns..  now, I would think the concussion alone from 300mm rockets would have incapacitated any crew within a 100 m radius.. but, Yakov was drunk and the concussions got him sober only to shoot the f'ing AT at the тигр..  ура ура ура

Edited January 13, 2015 by hm_stanley

[DMS]

I saw photos of Konigtigers near Balaton, destroyed by 1-3 shots from Zis-2. In sides, under the turret. It impressed me, such huge piece of metall was destroyed by that small gun. So it is realistic. What about supressing - ATG crew knows, that their live depens on who fires first, I don't think that they would lie down watching how German tank is aiming at them. They would either run, either aim and shoot.

[GhostRider3/3]

I saw photos of Konigtigers near Balaton, destroyed by 1-3 shots from Zis-2. In sides, under the turret. It impressed me, such huge piece of metall was destroyed by that small gun. So it is realistic. What about supressing - ATG crew knows, that their live depens on who fires first, I don't think that they would lie down watching how German tank is aiming at them. They would either run, either aim and shoot.

Well I replayed the scenario with the Patch that fixes HE rounds... works both ways, so be careful out there.  Its much easier to suppress or even have the gun crew abandon the gun if under heavy fire.  So things are working better then ever, but the flip side, it can happen to your crews just the same.