How about some basic advice for those of us new to modern?

[sburke]

You have to have a sense of humor in life and not take something seriously, or you'll kill yourself one day. You got to laugh at the things in this life.

You are telling this to a person with Putin done in the likeness of Alfred E Neuman for an Avatar. I got weird down. Just stare at that face for a while.

[MarkEzra]

Axis Sally may have been clairvoyant when she used to sign off her radio program with "Careful Boys - There's Danger Ahead!".  Testing has sharpened me up.

[A Canadian Cat]

You are telling this to a person with Putin done in the likeness of Alfred E Neuman for an Avatar. I got weird down. Just stare at that face for a while.

 

Yeah that is down right creepy.  I expect a DOS attack against the Battlefront community servers at any moment because Battlefront is hosting such an image

[Ultradave]

Probably in simple terms the same thing we were told in real life.

 

The modern battlefield is LETHAL.

If you can be seen you will be hit. If you are hit you are dead.

 

Keep that in mind all the time. (and a way to not be seen is to keep the other guy's head down, not just by hiding).

[Phoenix]

The modern battlefield is LETHAL.

If you can be seen you will be hit. If you are hit you are dead.

 

 

And how!!

 

Pretty clear you don't want to be in view of any ATM's, especially if you're in an armored car.

I am amazed that one of the vehicles survived the first shot, AND two guys got out after the second hit. Crazy stuff.

 

 

Edited January 22, 2015 by Phoenix

[Vergeltungswaffe]

I used to say no team goes where a scout hasn't been.  No squad goes where a team hasn't been.  No Platoon goes where a squad hasn't been.  No vehicle goes where infantry hasn't been.

 

Now, I need to shoehorn in front of that, Nothing goes where a UAV hasn't been. 

[VladimirTarasov]

Hey guys about Javelin missile system, I'm sure the CEP isnt accurate enough to hit the Turret of a T-90A or T-72B3, But most likely hit the front or the engine (which will most likely lead to explosion or full mobility kill if hit on engine) Which either way is bad but is the CEP of this weapon taken into account is a question I would like to know not about its effective because Im pretty sure engine block on fire is basically tank dead but just asking.

[dan/california]

Totally passive infrared seeker. There is no tank on earth with the roof armor to take the hit.  Have more tanks than they have missiles.  If the U.S. decides Putin has done enough it will be obvious. 

[Nerdwing]

Isnt it a sub-5 meter CEP as well?  Thats enough to hit the turret with decent probability I'd say.

[BlackAlpha]

 

 

Pretty clear you don't want to be in view of any ATM's, especially if you're in an armored car.

I am amazed that one of the vehicles survived the first shot, AND two guys got out after the second hit. Crazy stuff.

 

 

I don't think they survived the first hit. They were going at a fairly high speed, so when they get hit, they'll keep on rolling for a while, even if the vehicle got knocked out and everyone inside is hurting bad. It then may look like the vehicle is still up, but it's actually knocked out at that point. The vehicle (it's hard to see, armored car, BRDM?) doesn't look like it can survive even a RPG, and I'm fairly sure they fired ATGMs at it. The guys who got out could be bleeding badly, for all we know.

Edited January 23, 2015 by BlackAlpha

[Buzz]

I used to say no team goes where a scout hasn't been.  No squad goes where a team hasn't been.  No Platoon goes where a squad hasn't been.  No vehicle goes where infantry hasn't been.

Now, I need to shoehorn in front of that, Nothing goes where a UAV hasn't been. 

 

 

UAV's are a "good thing" in new modern ... unless they are your adversary's UAV's

 

 

Basic advice - new to modern.

 

Scout early and often.... and plenty...  like before you punch the start button.

 

Knowing the adversary's short - medium reach is critical. Knowing the adversary's long range ... reach out and torch your azzets ... is significant factor in new modern success on multi-km battlefields. 

 

Blitzing blindly is likely to get you hosed before you know what hosed you.

 

Really cool part of new modern are the 3D+ multidimensional challenges players are presented with.

 

Combat Mission Black Sea will be much more intense than WWII = fistfuls of fun as fast as you can / want to play

[agusto]

Some basic advice?

 

Tanks like the M1A2 or T-90 can kill everything they see, thanks to advanced IR sights & optics they see almost everything + they can fire on the move. They are very much unlike their WW2 predecessors. The older russian models (T-72, T80 and such) are still pretty good, although they usually loose when matched against M1A2s. The old russian models like T-55 or T-62 are worthless against modern MBTs. Tactically those old 1st generation MBTs must be used the same way as tanks in WW2, which means unbuttoning the TC, standing still in order to fire accurately, no night fighting capabilities, etc.

 

Infantry today is generally equipped with unguided RPG-style anti-tank weapons at the squad level. These weapons must expected to hit their targets at ranges around 200m. They are usually very effective against IFVs and APCs but not very effective against MBTs. They are also extremely deadly in MOUT operations. HMG and MGs in general are less important than they were in WW2 because every infantryman now has his own fully automatic rifle. ATGMs provide highly mobile long range anti-tank firepower to the infantry. ATGMs usually have ranges between 1000m and 3000m.

 

IFVs/APCs are much more effective than the old SdKfzs or Halftracks. They are more than just battlefield taxis. They often come with 20-30 mm autocannons and are very effective at supporting their dismounted troops. Some IFVs/APCs are also equipped with ATGMs, which makes them useful against MBTs. Usually though you dont want to match your IFVs/APCs against MBTs, ATGMs on IFVs are more like self defense weapons.

Edited January 25, 2015 by agusto

[Dogukan]

And how!!

 

Pretty clear you don't want to be in view of any ATM's, especially if you're in an armored car.

I am amazed that one of the vehicles survived the first shot, AND two guys got out after the second hit. Crazy stuff.

 

 

that was so painful to watch....but really, what were they thinking exposing themselves in plain open field where they would have to run hundreds of meters under turkey shooting?

[Buzz]

Regarding the Peshmerga video ..."cut the supply line to Tel Affar, more then 200 ISIS militias were killed and 300 square miles captured."ATGM hits on 12 minute video @ = 3:50 - 4:40 - 5:29 - 7:25 was that an MRAP blown to pieces? - 10:40

 

I guess these ISIS guys wanted to be martyrs? They were successful... not very effective but successful.

 

Combat Mission Black Sea ... the game... will have ATGMs that can reach out and touch over several kms!

Scout early and often.... and plenty...  like before you punch the start button.

Exposing anything in plain open field is likely to result in  the units last 'bad day'... unless the unit can acquire the target 1st and beat them to the draw.

[Kraft]

but really, what were they thinking exposing themselves in plain open field where they would have to run hundreds of meters under turkey shooting?

Do you see any forests they could've used as concealment and cover?

[BlackAlpha]

Do you see any forests they could've used as concealment and cover?

 

Yes, there were hills.

 

Suiciding will just get you needlessly killed. You either try something else or you run away to live another day. I recommend in game you don't try the same those guys did, you'll just get your units killed. That video shows how effective ATGMs are against vehicles.

Large open areas = deadly.

Edited January 25, 2015 by BlackAlpha

[Kraft]

Can you point to any scene in the video where those retreating Daesh troops weren't trying just that? Ie running into the open instead of a path that would offer a save way of getting away? No matter how poor your training and morale is, I assume if you are running for your life you usually choose the obvious safe way by instinct.

 

The only point would be that truck driving into the HMG and TOW fire, which I would explain as some sort of encircle-breakthrough attempt to get the hell away, which failed and was followed by the crew running back behind the hill.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Kraft

[BlackAlpha]

Let me rephrase that. Here's the basics of combat: Whatever you do, make sure there's a safe route for you to retreat, because in combat unexpected things often happen, forcing you to retreat and try again. If there's no safe route for you to retreat, you should reconsider what you are doing.

 

So, in the case of that video, you do not want to run down the hill into the open because if you get caught in the open, you have nowhere to go and you'll die (it looks like at least one of them got hit once or twice, so he'll probably die, the other guy got very lucky). It's better to stay behind the hills. And that's what they did at the end, after getting shot to pieces.

 

But hey, they were probably untrained which is why they just drove down that hill thinking it was perfectly safe.

Edited January 25, 2015 by BlackAlpha

[Buzz]

Let me rephrase that. Here's the basics of combat: Whatever you do, make sure there's a safe route for you to retreat, because in combat unexpected things often happen, forcing you to retreat and try again. If there's no safe route for you to retreat, you should reconsider what you are doing.

 

So, in the case of that video, you do not want to run down the hill into the open because if you get caught in the open, you have nowhere to go and you'll die (it looks like at least one of them got hit once or twice, so he'll probably die, the other guy got very lucky). It's better to stay behind the hills. And that's what they did at the end, after getting shot to pieces.

 

But hey, they were probably untrained which is why they just drove down that hill thinking it was perfectly safe.

 

At least poorly trained with poor leadership. It would have been better to stay behind the hills.... but in the Black Sea game (not the Peshmerga video) your adversary may have a UAV maybe an RQ-7B Shadow or a MQ-1C Gray Eagle over your hiding hill. Hills may not work for you then

 

Then the UAV's effectiveness depends on the Electronic Warfare setting: None, Light, Medium, Strong.

 

If the designer does not want modern radio and satellite communications nets for his scenario he can pretty much degrade or shut down a lot of modern equipment and it comes back to eyes on target.... and scout early and often.

[womble]

...in the Black Sea game (not the Peshmerga video) your adversary may have a UAV maybe an RQ-7B Shadow or a MQ-1C Gray Eagle over your hiding hill. Hills may not work for you then

 

Then the UAV's effectiveness depends on the Electronic Warfare setting: None, Light, Medium, Strong.

 

If the designer does not want modern radio and satellite communications nets for his scenario he can pretty much degrade or shut down a lot of modern equipment and it comes back to eyes on target.... and scout early and often.

That leads me to propose another "tenet": Bring something to shoot down those UAVs, and keep it safe out of ground-LOS somewhere. While that's directly applicable when you have (mostly) free choice over your forces in a QB, it's something that probably ought to be a consideration for any modern "symmetrical" conflict, and so should be a factor considered by scenario designers.

And of course the obverse of that coin is "geek the AD" if you want to use UAVs yourself...

[Buzz]

That leads me to propose another "tenet": Bring something to shoot down those UAVs, and keep it safe out of ground-LOS somewhere. While that's directly applicable when you have (mostly) free choice over your forces in a QB, it's something that probably ought to be a consideration for any modern "symmetrical" conflict, and so should be a factor considered by scenario designers.

And of course the obverse of that coin is "geek the AD" if you want to use UAVs yourself...

Sound design doctrine womble. Should be a consideration for modern "symmetrical" conflict where the 3rd dimension can really make or break your day. Even with observation only UAVs = no kill payload, if the side being observed thinks their hiding spot is warm & cozy they may find some HE if they stay cozy for too long. Black Sea does have Stinger Surface-to-Air Missile (SAM) teams... and more.

[wee]

 

Re: ATGMs

 

Here's the important caveats to remember when operating ATGMs from any platform (except the Javelin)

1. Bullets are faster than missile. The longer you fire the missile from, the longer it takes to impact, the more time the enemy has to react to missile.  It takes a TOW missile about 30 seconds to reach its max range around 3750 meters, that's enough time for the enemy to pop smoke, or return fire with a tank gun, which could very well kill the launching crew before the missile is even close to the target.  To this end it can be wise to ignore max range shots in favor of letting the enemy close in a bit (or it takes a tank shell 2ish seconds to go to 4 KM, it's flight time is fairly constant, while your missile fired at 2000 meters will only take 15ish seconds, which is a much harder thing to react to than 30 seconds)

 

Excellent point.

 

I think the effectiveness of ATGMs is little overrated in this topic and limitations are left little outside the discussion (haven't red all the replies yet though).

 

1. ATGMs. If deadly to targets, also deadly for operators. Especially older wire-guided systems. Operator needs to have good and unobstructed LOS  to the target, and this means that target can also see the ATGM team. Relatively slow missile,  needs to be guided to the target during the flight and this means that countermeasures against the ATGM team will be a serious threat. Lose the team and the missile will most likely miss. Missiles could also be evaded if the range is long and the missile is slow.

 

If I remember right, average calculated/estimated life expectancy of Finnish ATGM team in combat (equipped with older wire guided missiles) will be less than one minute.

 

2. ATGMs and vegetation. Using wire guided ATGMs in area with heavy vegetation is a no-go most likely. You need to have unobstructed clear and good LOS to the target. If the wire will get grabbed to the tree, branch or bush, the wire might snap off and the missile turns into a rocket. Operator will lose the control of the missile. 

 

Fire-and-forget systems and especially top attacking missiles might be more useful, but I doubt that heavily vegetated areas, especially forests with thick vegetation and/or high trees will be problematic even to highly sophisticated top attacking missiles. Not only to protect the target, but also making the launch of the missile and flight in trajectory obstructed.

 

3. LAWs. Effectiveness against tanks increases in heavily vegetated areas and especially forests. More concealment and cover and better ambush possibilities for tank-hunter teams, just like in urban areas. Expect to need up to 4 to 6 hits with lighter LAWs to knock out modern MBT. LAWs are also effective especially if used with antitank mines. Finnish tactics emphasis a strong combined use of mines and LAWs. Immobilize with mines and shoot stationary targets with LAWs to maximize the possibility of hits. Avoid shooting frontal arcs, always look for sides and rear. Actually, nothing new with this tactic since WW2.

Edited January 26, 2015 by wee

[agusto]

It must suck to be a finnish ATGM team . What do the affected soldiers say to such calculations? Arent they demoralized?

 

If I remember right, average calculated/estimated life expectancy of Finnish ATGM team in combat (equipped with older wire guided missiles) will be less than one minute.

Edited January 26, 2015 by agusto

[wee]

It must suck to be a finnish ATGM team . What do the affected soldiers say to such calculations? Arent they demoralized?

 

Casualties in AT have always been high, but I've always thought that the discussed life expectancy is more or less an army joke. Although shooting AT-4 or iTOW missiles towards tanks is hazardous profession I have to admit. 

[wee]

HMG and MGs in general are less important than they were in WW2 because every infantryman now has his own fully automatic rifle. 

 

Difficult to say. Roughly 90% from infantry casualties are inflicted with fragmentation of somekind (primary or secondary fragments or incendiary agents) or pressure. About 10% are inflicted with small arms fire. At least consuption of ammunition have increaded I think. Firepower of the infantry batallions or brigades have have risen propably tens of times, and increase in firepower of infantry squad is propably ten times higher or little less than in WW2. At least five to six times higher I think.

 

Survivability rate has also dramatically increased since ww2 becuse of improvements in casualty care in general (like training, procedures, equipment and logistics for example) and field surgery.

 

Oddly, ratio between wounded and dead have been the same since WW1 until at least 1980s, about 1:3-4. 

Edited January 26, 2015 by wee