The future of user made scenarios – and the lack of community feedback

[kohlenklau]

Hi Dennis,

Back a ways I tried to start something called the "scenario factory" where folks could divide up the chores. I helped write a few briefings and did some op/strat/tac maps and such. Maybe I should refresh the thread....?

I only have a few scenarios I have gotten to the point to post them. So many others have just fallen to the sides from being too busy or too lazy or losing motivation. Biting off more than I could chew probably.

I would not say I have been swamped with scenario feedback especially through the repository but what I got was as PM's or in forum threads and was very good quality and constructive. I actually owe a rewrite/revision to one scenario based on some great feedback. The irony is that the guy giving feedback really didn't have time for a replay!

Your ideas sound good.

Now I also just remembered I tried to have a scenario contest with some small prizes last fall with the anniversary of the Ardennes Offensive using a mod that a few folks created called "CMFI GL Bulge 44". JonS volunteered to be a judge and I asked a certain big cheese at Battlefront but he was busy. Alas, no entries were ever submitted...

What is that saying? Change starts with me. I am going to pledge to send some good quality feedback with the next 5 scenarios I play. Starting with one of your scenarios!

[Rambler]

That is what feeds my motivation for releasing scenarios. My "payment" for my work, if you like. You may find that needy, silly or whatever, but that is how things work for me. And not getting that feedback leaves my motivation dead as a doornail.

If your motivation for modding and making scenarios is for feedback or seeing it in use you will be continually disappointed and demotivated time and time again. Rule #1 for modding or scenario making is this: You do it for yourself and not for others. You mod or make scenarios that you will enjoy making or playing. Once it's done and you're happy with what you have made, you get to decide whether or not to share it. I usually chose to share what I made. I figured that if I like it maybe someone else out there will too. I didn't feel that other people owed me feedback, though. Sure, it's cool to see people enjoying what you made, but at the end of the day what matters is if you enjoyed what you did. While I'm glad people have liked the mods and scenario I've made, I can honestly say if no one liked them I would still be happy with what I created. I had fun making what I wanted to make.

[GreenAsJade]

We definitely need a good place where scenarios can be stored, found, reviewed etc.

I'm working on revamping CMMODs to properly support scenarios, and this sort of stuff.

It's a background project, though, so it's taking some time...

GaH

[Hister]

Wow,GAJ, that's awesone! Thank you.

[Mord]

If your motivation for modding and making scenarios is for feedback or seeing it in use you will be continually disappointed and demotivated time and time again.

Yeah. Most of the time any comments and excitement are gonna be generated in a preview/WIP thread if you create one. Once that bad boy is released into the world you are lucky if you get a star rating. I spent probably 25+ hours on the CMFI AAR token mod and haven't seen them used once, LOL. So, it's a toss up. It just goes with the territory.

But for what it's worth, umlaut, you raised the bar through the stratosphere with your rubble mod. It will go down in CM modding history with all of the great conversions, like Magua's Normandy mod and Tom's Bulge mod etc. The creativity and asymmetrical thinking that went into designing it are beyond anything that has been done up until this point. You opened some huge doors and hopefully others will come along, stand on your shoulders, and carry it in other directions, like we've had with various modding discoveries in the past. I believe it was Ryujin that did the first hex edit...now look what has come from that one little step on the CM modding evolutionary scale. I haven't played around with it yet, but regardless, you released a masterpiece.

So, I think your best bet would be to start a thread about one of your scenarios or mods after you make it and get a discussion going. Be proactive and seek out the feedback and you may get what you are looking for. It beats waiting for everyone to say something on their own. Just look at how many posts this one here generated.

Great job, brother!

Mord.

[Mord]

Gaj, my man, you didn't lose all the CMSF mods did you? You know you had some stuff on your site that isn't in the Repos.

Mord.

[GreenAsJade]

All the mods that were uploaded to my CMSFMods site are still there in my Amazon account.

It would be a non-trivial exercise to turn back on access to them though.

GaJ

[Mord]

How come you turned them off?

Mord.

[GreenAsJade]

From time to time I get forced to do "maintenance". It's usually because the hosting service is end-of-life-ing some techology or other that I've used - as was the case in this instance, at least a year ago now.

Leading up to that time I had noticed that CMSFMods was not getting used - in particular, many CMSF Mods were getting posted at the BFC Repostitory and not at CMSF Mods. So when the time came to upgrade each site in turn (CMMODS, TOWHouse, Guitar Lesson Guide, CMSF Mods) I decided it wasn't worth the effort to keep CMSF Mods going. This assessment was vindicated by the complete lack anyone noticing that CMSF Mods went away.

GaJ

[Bimmer]

I haven't been very active around here lately, but since this thread has resurfaced I figured I'd poke my nose out of my hole to throw out an idea.

I've got a scenario built and essentially ready to go. Historical map (right down to using the 1947 French aerial survey maps), semi-historical circumstances (correct date and units, at least in a broad sense), tested and balanced for H2H. Mixed forces on both sides, attacker in reinforced battalion strength. Now that the vehicle pack is out I may add a smattering of new units just for fun (nothing to fundamentally change things).

What I'm wondering, purely for experimental purposes, is if people would pay a nominal sum (like $0.99) to download it. The reason is not to get rich quick (obviously) but to see if people feel more invested in it if they've, well, invested in it. Over and over I've read comments about users downloading scenarios and forgetting about them, thus making them less likely to provide feedback - maybe a token pay-to-play system would change this. People certainly seem willing to complain on these forums when they don't like some aspect of CM, and many also offer positive comments as well (though the ratio favors the former, it would seem). I can't help but wonder if paying for the product contributes to this, and, if so, if such responsiveness would carry over to paid-for scenarios.

[Hister]

Ask developers - such a thing is very close to some kind of infrigment.

[umlaut]

If your motivation for modding and making scenarios is for feedback or seeing it in use you will be continually disappointed and demotivated time and time again. Rule #1 for modding or scenario making is this: You do it for yourself and not for others. You mod or make scenarios that you will enjoy making or playing.

**Sigh**

I think that´s a rather condescending comment. Especially when considering what I stated in the original post in this thread:

It has often been said in these discussions that "you should only make scenarios to please yourself, not the community". That is of course entirely true – and as you can see, this is what I do myself.

But sometimes I decide I´d like to share one of my scenarios with the CM community. And this is where the trouble starts.

Because there is a crucial difference between making a scenario that is playable for the designer himself and making one that is playable for everyone in the community, ie one that is ready for release.

In my experience the time needed to make a scenario ready for release equals the time used on creating the scenario itself.

Making a scenario ready for release means:

- writing a briefing that is clear and hopefully entertaing to the players. Two briefings, if it is a H2H scenario.

- making a correct list of the forces involved

- making a strategic map BMP

- making a tactical map BMP

- making a preview BMP

- making a operational map BMP

- writing designer´s notes

But the most time consuming aspect above all is playtesting the scenario. This involves activating several volunteer testers, who play the scenario while they send me save files, during action reports (DAR´s), comments and suggestions. Then, when the testers have finished playtesting, I begin altering and tweaking the forces, map, victory points or AI plans based on their experiences and suggestions. After this I usually get one or two new testers to playtest the new version of the scenario to make sure there are no oversights.

All in all this process takes at least one month – usually several - and involves between three and six testers.

You see the difference here? If I just want keep the scenario for myself and enjoy it on my own, I can do that right away. But if I want to share my scenario with you guys in the community, I´ll have to work twice as much on it – for months, literally.

And then, when I release the scenario, the feedback is mainly next to nothing.

Maps get posted on the Blitz and sent out monthly for comment.

Try using this club.

I posted a thread there about this five weeks ago. Replies so far: 0

So, I think your best bet would be to start a thread about one of your scenarios or mods after you make it and get a discussion going. Be proactive and seek out the feedback and you may get what you are looking for. It beats waiting for everyone to say something on their own.

Been there. Done that. No dice.

But for what it's worth, umlaut, you raised the bar through the stratosphere with your rubble mod. It will go down in CM modding history with all of the great conversions, like Magua's Normandy mod and Tom's Bulge mod etc. The creativity and asymmetrical thinking that went into designing it are beyond anything that has been done up until this point. You opened some huge doors and hopefully others will come along, stand on your shoulders, and carry it in other directions, like we've had with various modding discoveries in the past. I believe it was Ryujin that did the first hex edit...now look what has come from that one little step on the CM modding evolutionary scale. I haven't played around with it yet, but regardless, you released a masterpiece.

(...)

Great job, brother!

Thanks a lot, Mord. That is all very heartwarming and I really appreciate it. Unfortunately, it doesn´t help me very much with the current problem. Because I am serious when I say that it is crucial to my motivation that I know that people are actually using my work. And at the moment, I have no evidence that anyone are. So what would be the point of me working further on the scenarios?

I have already made and played the three scenarios that would make up the mini campaign. And I had a lot of fun making and playing them. So as far as I, personally, am concerned, the scenarios are spent.

Why should I spend more time on them by making them into a campaign? Because, as things stand in the communtiy right now, there´s nothing in it for me - except a lot of work.

This wouldn´t benefit me at all - only other players. And it isn´t like we owe each other anything in this community. Right?

I am going to state my opnion as simply as possible:

My motivation for releasing comes from knowing that people are actually using the stuff I release. So if you use my stuff and want me to release more, you´ll have to give me that feedback. Because if you don´t, I won´t.

As a consequence, the future for my release of scenarios will look like this:

I wont release anything in the forseeable future. But I might release the mini campaign later when I have regained my motivation. I´ll do it mainly because I think I owe it to the guys who have already spent a lot of time testing the scenarios.

I am working on three CMBN scenarios in various stages of completion. If I release any of them they are going to be untested. Because the last times I have made call for testers in the forums I´ve had extremely few replies. And besides I really can´t be bothered to do all that work related to testing for nothing.

[Ranger33]

I was thinking something similar but maybe more along the lines of a "Scenario Pack" that includes numerous scenarios and campaigns for maybe like $10-15. The big draw for me with CM is campaigns, but these seem to be few and far between, especially official ones.

I guess the big problem here would be making sure everything in the pack is of a certain quality level.

[Hister]

umlaut, get some rest. I concur with your reasoning.

A bit surprised you,are not thrilled about part of,your,map being used in great Char and Char mission. I know I would be if someone would use my mastermap and use it for his own work.

[Nelson 1812]

Hi Umlaut

Think you help test out one of mine a year or so ago, ... for a tournament at BoBs.

Here is a suggestion for you. Why not join a club... band of brothers... Few Good Men... Blitz.

Setup your own tournament, and your have about 20-30 guys battling your scenarios. You get some feed back... not as much as you deserve, but a least it is good to know people are playing your scenarios.

Think any of the clubs would welcome your imput... Your be welcomed at the Band of Brothers... but I guess that would go for the other clubs as well!

Something to think on.....

[Oddball_E8]

My motivation for releasing comes from knowing that people are actually using the stuff I release. So if you use my stuff and want me to release more, you´ll have to give me that feedback. Because if you don´t, I won´t.

I felt the same way about my soundmods for a while.

Waclaw was getting tons of praise for his soundmods while mine were pretty much passing by unnoticed it seemed.

I was getting around half the number of downloads as him, sometimes less.

It kinda felt like it was pointless to release the mod.

But then I thought to myself that I might as well release it since I'm really just making it for myself and not for the community.

Releasing it was just a gift for the ones who actually download my soundmods.

And I strongly feel that is how everyone should view their modding and scenario designing.

Don't do it for anyone else than yourself.

I mean, sure, it's great to get feedback, but in the end you are making the scenarios for your own pleasure.

Releasing them is just icing on the cake.

Don't get me wrong here. I don't view Waclaw as a rival or anything, I'm just saying his mods got alot of praise while mine got almost no notice in comparison. That kind of stuff can easily get a modder to stop releasing mods.

So yeah, it IS important to provide feedback on everything released, not just scenarios and campaigns, but mods too.

Because it's always nice to feel appreciated.

But don't release stuff for the sake of others, do it for yourself. If you are satisfied with the scenario/campaign/mod and release it but get no feedback, just assume everyone who downloaded it is satisfied too, since people usually only speak up if they are dissatisfied with something.

[Hister]

I use parts of your sounds Oddball.

[kevinkin]

Has anyone looked at Survey Monkey yet? It is so easy and free. We use to use it to poll what restaurant people at work wanted to go to for lunch. Thats how much time it takes out of the day.

www.surveymonkey.com/

Kevin

[Alan8325]

I haven't been very active around here lately, but since this thread has resurfaced I figured I'd poke my nose out of my hole to throw out an idea.

I've got a scenario built and essentially ready to go. Historical map (right down to using the 1947 French aerial survey maps), semi-historical circumstances (correct date and units, at least in a broad sense), tested and balanced for H2H. Mixed forces on both sides, attacker in reinforced battalion strength. Now that the vehicle pack is out I may add a smattering of new units just for fun (nothing to fundamentally change things).

What I'm wondering, purely for experimental purposes, is if people would pay a nominal sum (like $0.99) to download it. The reason is not to get rich quick (obviously) but to see if people feel more invested in it if they've, well, invested in it. Over and over I've read comments about users downloading scenarios and forgetting about them, thus making them less likely to provide feedback - maybe a token pay-to-play system would change this. People certainly seem willing to complain on these forums when they don't like some aspect of CM, and many also offer positive comments as well (though the ratio favors the former, it would seem). I can't help but wonder if paying for the product contributes to this, and, if so, if such responsiveness would carry over to paid-for scenarios.

You could post a Bitcoin address for tips. I'm not sure how many CM players are familiar with Bitcoin, much less actually have any, but I'm one who has some and would gladly tip for a scenario I like. Perfect place to put a Bitcoin address is in the design notes of your scenario briefing. Bonus points for pasting a barcode so that all I have to do is scan it with my phone and send your way 0.0025 Bitcoin ($0.99 at current rates).

Of course ask BFC if they would mind first.

[Oddball_E8]

I use parts of your sounds Oddball.

Glad to hear it

I prefer people mixing and matching to their own perfection actually

[sburke]

You could post a Bitcoin address for tips. I'm not sure how many CM players are familiar with Bitcoin, much less actually have any, but I'm one who has some and would gladly tip for a scenario I like. Perfect place to put a Bitcoin address is in the design notes of your scenario briefing. Bonus points for pasting a barcode so that all I have to do is scan it with my phone and send your way 0.0025 Bitcoin ($0.99 at current rates).

Of course ask BFC if they would mind first.

I think I can answer that easily, any sales of anything based on CM would violate your agreement at purchase and violate copyright.

[Hister]

Glad to hear it

I prefer people mixing and matching to their own perfection actually

Yes, it's the next step in mod use evolution. Although I just discovered my mixing and matching caused idle engines to bee too low on volume when compared to the rest of the sounds. Gotta fix that.

[Fizou]

I prefer people mixing and matching to their own perfection actually

Thats the way I roll too. And use some of yours as well

[Oddball_E8]

Yes, it's the next step in mod use evolution. Although I just discovered my mixing and matching caused idle engines to bee too low on volume when compared to the rest of the sounds. Gotta fix that.

Yeah, that's a problem with the game engine I think.

Sometimes my vehicle sounds (both idle and movement, but mostly movement) are very muted and sometimes they're not.

Thats the way I roll too. And use some of yours as well

Glad to hear it

Feel free to release your individual collection as a mod as well. Might fit someone elses tastes better and save them the trouble of picking.

Heck, it might influence me to change my own mix

[Hister]

Yeah, mod is never finished. That's a number one fact. Why? Because creativity and taste are limitless.

Ahem, so you say engine idle/active sounds are fubar in vanilla too or just in mods? I thought I only mixed mods with different volume set.