Battlefront.com Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Cool that you like it.I like thousands of ideas I've seen people suggest, or at least don't disagree with them. It's a great source of information to help us improve the game, but that doesn't mean a good/OK/acceptable idea gets in just because I acknowledge it. Your idea has been suggested before, BTW. Can we expect it with Bulge?No. And it's not going to be in the Upgrade 4.0 feature set either. There's already far too many things on that list. Yes, Modders and scenario guys will get something new to have fun with, just not this particular idea.Oh, and hopefully the new Repository will help out content makers. We're making progress on it.Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim1954 Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 One thing that I would like to see is a way for the designers, whether of battles or campaigns, to put exactly what version of the game that they used when they created it. I know it is not such of a big deal in a battle since it can be fairly easily edited but the campaigns that are created are no small amount of work on the designer and it's a load for the player at times, as well. Especially if the campaign was created early on in the evolution of the game. It might help ease the problem of investing a lot of time in playing something that gets inadvertently broken in future upgrades/patches. If not in the initial briefing then maybe somewhere that is easily found. I have a lot of user created ones downloaded, ok honestly, every one that I see, and it's hard to remember exactly what came with which initial purchase. If this is already there, would someone point out to me where? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burroughs Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 I find the best indicator for a good scenario is how often it is downloaded. Absolutely yes - according to my experience I am on a constant lookout for new custom made scenarios for all of the titles I happen to have - and I happen to have all of them - and give them a spin as soon as I am only able to most often or even faster than I am able and perhaps should give - provided they have that something that arouses my enthusiasm. I used to be way more active over a decade ago as a part of "Operation >Flashpoint<" community - did reviews for missions, discussed them at the forums, got in touch with designers, fellow wargamers, read a lot about millitary history and tried to siphon some new or interesting ideas - that sort of stuff - at the height of that activity period I was invited to join the staff of one of the leading OFP sites which now is mainly ArmA one due to my contribution .. The funny thing is that I sipmply overlooked that and never responded, I guess I got a bit burnt out in a way, but mianly I just focused on the core which was simply playing - and that is exactly the way it is now, I am simply way to lazy to type in the small hours of the morning etc., I am afraid I am getting too old for that, but still do a lot of wargaming, it's just no more nights and not much time spent interacting with community guys hence - lack of feedback. I was invited to playtest a scenario lately which I never did as I didn't have time or will to play it in the SP mode after all, after playing against human oponents for years it's just not my cup of tea ... maybe that's anotyer reason, but I have no doubts there are many guys who are ( mainly or exclusively ) interested in SP scenarios. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umlaut Posted June 20, 2015 Author Share Posted June 20, 2015 Well, it seems like I have awoken this dormant thread, which really wasn´t my intention. I was simply pointing to it in another thread - as an explanation for why I no longer release my scenarios. But as the thread starter, I can´t say I mind getting a bit more focus on this subject. The authors of the most recent posts seem to have either overlooked (or ignored) some of the previous answers. That is hardly surprising, since this has become a rather long thread. So let me briefly sum up my own views by (once again) answering some of the most common and - in my view - mistaken statements: "Do the scenario design for your own satisfaction, and don't expect any support for the outside" Well, I do make my scenarios for my own satisfaction. But the work is (roughly) doubled when it comes to taking the scenario a step further and actually make it available to the community. Now if I get nothing out of releasing the scenario - except at lot of extra work - why should I? "I don´t know enough about scenario design to give feedback to the designer" You don´t have to know anything. All I want to know is that you played it - and most importantly how: Screenshots + comments! "The best indicator for a good scenario is how often it is downloaded." Sorry, but I honestly believe this statement is nonsense. The number of downloads will tell you - how many times the scenario has been downloaded. You have no way of knowing what a scenario is like before you have downloaded it. So even the most rubbish scenario could get 1000 downloads - as long as it looks promising to players. And anyway: I am not that interested in if my scenario has been downloaded and played - but how it has played out. "Don´t expect any feedback from players as long as they can get the scenarios for free and don´t have to provide feedback" Don´t expect scenarios from me as long as I can just make them for myself and don´t have to upload them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Umlaut.... Well, it seems like I have awoken this dormant thread, which really wasn´t my intention. I was simply pointing to it in another thread - as an explanation for why I no longer release my scenarios. But as the thread starter, I can´t say I mind getting a bit more focus on this subject. The authors of the most recent posts seem to have either overlooked (or ignored) some of the previous answers. That is hardly surprising, since this has become a rather long thread. So let me briefly sum up my own views by (once again) answering some of the most common and - in my view - mistaken statements: "Do the scenario design for your own satisfaction, and don't expect any support for the outside" Well, I do make my scenarios for my own satisfaction. But the work is (roughly) doubled when it comes to taking the scenario a step further and actually make it available to the community. Now if I get nothing out of releasing the scenario - except at lot of extra work - why should I? Because I like your stuff. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kieme(ITA) Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Thanks Steve for the heads up. May I suggest a concrete bone to be thrown somewhere? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 The fact is that if you aren't self motivated you aren't going to be making a lot of scenarios. Someone who wants to dabble in the editor just to make something isn't going to make very much beyond a scenario or two. This is especially the case if that person is going to base whether they create something upon whether someone says they like it or not. If you are going to make ten or twenty scenarios you have to knuckle down and almost treat scenario creation like a full time job because the more you make the harder it is to get motivated to make something. There is also the matter of what your feedback expectations are. If you just want people to say 'great job' then that isn't really moving the ball forward in your ability to create stuff that others like to play. I find the best feedback to be negative feedback ... the main thing about that though is that you have to have a solid foundation for a design philosophy in order to separate the wheat from the chaff. You can't design a scenario that is exactly what some other fellow wants because then you are making that other guy's scenario instead of your own. You have to design a scenario that matches what your own objectives are and if someone gives feedback that suggests a different design philosophy then you have to thank them and reject the suggestion because it doesn't fit with what you are trying to do. I can see where if someone doesn't have a firm handle on their own design philosophy that feedback of any kind would be important, but that gets us back to the whole self motivated thing again. If you are self motivated and you have a solid design philosophy then, while any feedback is welcome and can act to either confirm what you are doing or show you where you might improve, it isn't entirely necessary for a designer to continue creating stuff. Besides, no matter how prolific or experienced a designer might be there will always be hits and misses. Some stuff will work and some stuff will not work no matter how much valuable feedback someone may get. That's just the way it is. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burroughs Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 (edited) Well, it seems like I have awoken this dormant thread, which really wasn´t my intention. There may be your answer - there might be feedback, but you refuse to recognize it just like here. I didn't know it's necessary to apply for advanced studies to be able to reply to a thread, especially when you refer to the general idea as per thread subject. Perhaps the thread starter should be interetsed in all of its content then, but I doubt that. So, sticking to the way of thinking displayed here, I guess I should not be commenting on a custom scenario making if I am not a maker myself? Anyway, it's futile. I am out then. Famous words from "The Bolt" - " ... by the way: huge fan. Love it, love you. Gotta go. Thank you. ..." Edited June 20, 2015 by burroughs 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kohlenklau Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 (edited) I appreciate what you are saying Jon. Follow your heart and to your own self be true or something like that. But I think it worth noting this is a thread about user made scenarios and feel free to correct me if I am all wrong, you are in the stock scenario author higher plateau of consciousness up in a different world now and get assigned your dedicated playtester(s). If 1 or 2 or so of these beta tester playtester guys give you lame feedback, then I guess your own feedback to ChrisND or whoever is "Don't pick that guy again please." Dennis and I (amateur 3rd class) have nearly had to beg, ....no..did beg!... to get playtesters. Maybe GeorgeMC and other stock writers who come down to the 3rd party world on occasion can harness the rock star glamour (well deserved as applicable) and the playtesters often pop out of the woodwork like cockroaches. Maybe I have this all wrong and stock scenario playtesting is not well supported as in my above assumption. But a new title hitting the streets, those stock scenarios are going to be highly likely to be on the threads being discussed and AAR'd. That is feedback. Though it would be sad that a lemon gets released or a minor/major goof is spotted only after it is played more. Which does happen. Like with that bridge in the Son counterattack scenario I believe. Did umlaut's Bailey bridge mod fix that? I gotta go see that thread... Edited June 20, 2015 by kohlenklau 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Kohlenklau, without violating any NDAs etc I think I can say your perception of beta testers and scenarios is a bit off and has a more organized perspective than reality. And that is probably all I can really say specifically about that. The difference in a user scenario and a "stock" scenario is at least for the stock designer you have a group of other designers to provide some feedback. However the user community designer has access to those same personnel. Heck one of them even went so far as to do a step by step guide. In a general sense though, playtester feedback is a two edged sword. On the one hand you want information, on the other hand the information you get is totally subjective. Different skill sets of players, different play styles, differing opinions on what is enjoyable all mean that two players playing the same scenario can give you completely different impressions. It actually makes me hesitant to provide too strong an opinion as opposed to providing feedback on the timing of the game for me and how the scenario actually played out. As an example Panzermike's Fester Platz Polozk I absolutely loved, it is right up my alley. However I have seen some pretty negative feedback as well on it. My first scenario ever was Venafro. I had an idea for a map, that then morphed into a scenario. The scenario I thought I had in my head was not really workable both because of my skill level and because scenarios in player hands are simply unpredictable. With the feedback I got from folks like JonS and ASLvet and others I completely changed the map and the scenario. It was still an experiment in a blasted urban battleground, but was cut down extensively from my original design (and worked far better). The feedback from other designers was not necessarily from their having actually played it but from knowing what were the probable errors I was gonna make - too ambitious being the biggest one. The scenario that went into the finished product was one I had no idea how well it would actually work for players. In feedback since it seems that for HTH play it is pretty evenly balanced - total fluke as I had no idea in that regard how my victory conditions would pan out. My point is that feedback from players may not be as helpful as you think. Example of that from CMBN is Green hell I played both sides in different PBEM matches and I found depending on the players involved, it can be interpreted as balanced or heavily weighted to one side or the other. A whole other question is did I enjoy it. In this case absolutely I did, win or lose. It is a difficult cat and mouse game. I have had other scenarios that while they play out well and may even be balanced I didn't enjoy so much just because they were not a "style" or battle type I particularly enjoyed. That is totally subjective and useless to the designer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kohlenklau Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 (edited) Steven, thanks for correcting my false beliefs.... No limo rides, no secretary girls, no corporate box seats? All my beta tester misconceptions falling like a house of cards... <<a big thanks to ALL scenario authors, stock or 3rd party!>> Edited June 20, 2015 by kohlenklau 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
76mm Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 (edited) No limo rides, no secretary girls, no corporate box seats? Ahem, why do you think he emphasized the NDA? He obviously can't tell us everything... Edited June 20, 2015 by 76mm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umlaut Posted June 20, 2015 Author Share Posted June 20, 2015 There may be your answer - there might be feedback, but you refuse to recognize it just like here. I didn't know it's necessary to apply for advanced studies to be able to reply to a thread, especially when you refer to the general idea as per thread subject. Perhaps the thread starter should be interetsed in all of its content then, but I doubt that. So, sticking to the way of thinking displayed here, I guess I should not be commenting on a custom scenario making if I am not a maker myself? Anyway, it's futile. I am out then. Famous words from "The Bolt" - " ... by the way: huge fan. Love it, love you. Gotta go. Thank you. ..." Sorry, Burroughs: I have now read this comment at least four times. And I honestly have no idea what your point is??? Really. So my answer short and based on a guess: I did not want to reignite the discussion in this thread, because I am fed up with it. I have concluded that as things are in the CM community, scenario designers must just accept that they generally wont get feedback on their work - and consequently I have decided that I wont upload any more scenarios. I did not want to discuss this any more - I just wanted to point a forumite to the thread where he could find the reason for my decission. And as far as I understand your comment, you seem to somehow have turned this statement upside-down: "I don´t know enough about scenario design to give feedback to the designer" You don´t have to know anything. All I want to know is that you played it - and most importantly how: Screenshots + comments! Or what? I am truly mystified. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 I did not want to reignite the discussion in this thread, because I am fed up with it. I have concluded that as things are in the CM community, scenario designers must just accept that they generally wont get feedback on their work - and consequently I have decided that I wont upload any more scenarios. I did not want to discuss this any more - I just wanted to point a forumite to the thread where he could find the reason for my decission. I'm sure the community appreciates your efforts. This isn't something new either because the same thing was discussed back with CMBO and CMBB etc. There were a few scenario sites where people could upload stuff and then there would be arguments and discussions about the star rating system and different people giving someone a bad score which messed up the average and all of that. It got to the point where different designers wanted so much control over the scoring and comments that it almost became useless to try and give any feedback. The designers only wanted to read what they wanted to read and many times a designer would get nothing but negative feedback if they got any at all. I would say the percentage of people who commented on scenarios was probably less than ten percent of those who downloaded something. I made about 40 scenarios for CMBO and another 40 for CMBB and for much of that time I couldn't even find a website that would host what I was creating so I simply made them for my friends. I even e-mailed a site or two to ask if I could upload something but they would refuse - I guess I wasn't part of their 'club' or a known designer for a tournament. So even with nobody downloading what I was making I continued to create them because scenario design is a bit of a craft and it was the creation process itself that I spent the most time on in the game. You have to be self motivated and enjoy the process of creating in and of itself and you have to develop your own personal style. I used to always say that I create what I like to play and if someone else likes to play what I like to create then so much the better. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umlaut Posted June 20, 2015 Author Share Posted June 20, 2015 I give up. Seems that noone is capable of reading what I am writing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 I am reading your comments Umlaut, but even with that I am not sure I know what you are looking for. I am pretty certain you know I appreciate your work and have given you feedback. It is frankly appreciated, but the nature of scenarios (length of time before the player actually gets around to completing) and the fact that only a small percentage of the community even participates in the forum means by default feedback will be very limited. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 "The best indicator for a good scenario is how often it is downloaded." Sorry, but I honestly believe this statement is nonsense. The number of downloads will tell you - how many times the scenario has been downloaded. You have no way of knowing what a scenario is like before you have downloaded it. So even the most rubbish scenario could get 1000 downloads - as long as it looks promising to players. And anyway: I am not that interested in if my scenario has been downloaded and played - but how it has played out. Well, it also shows your lack of community knowledge. I agree that it is not a great indicator, or is it meaning something other than what it is. But I might have published around 20 to 25 scenarios back in the CMX1 days. It sure is funny that the better scenarios magically were downloaded at least twice as much as the ones that did not fair so well. Why. Well, I will let you flex your thinking for just a second. Clubs and groups my friend. Like you mentioned, people will download anything that might interest them. But liking it is something else. But when they like it, they tell their friends and others that play, they then download it and the impact is started. Thus it became clear that if I had a scenario that was pulling large number of downloads, word of mouth was causing the extra interest. So you can think it is nonsense, but I know what I am saying is truth. Also, once you start making some good scenarios, you also get fans, they will track down every thing you have made and download it. At the scenario depot it was easy to see this with the data you could look at. I also really must agree with many of the comments about feed back not being all that useful in truth. As the designer, you still have to be the master of your creation and feedback can be a slight indicator as to what information is needed. I found that the only useful input was from other designers who would share their views as to how to approach things. The average player comments were in general , not of much value. It was good to hear that they liked something, but on the other hand, they could be over critical. and in truth. neither really indicated all the time how good or bad the scenario was. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agusto Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Oh lets not start to go down the flamewar road yet please...i still have something to say on this topic, i would not be particularily happy to see it getting closed. Some time ago i wrote in this thread that i dont care about the expected cheers when i make a scenario, but i have realized in the mean time that this is only partially true. It is true that i dont think about the expected cheers when i start making a scenario. When i decide i want to make a scenario, i always start because I want to play a specific scenario and i dont even think about anyone else playing it or anybodys opinion. Sometimes i read about a battle in a history book, on Wikipedia or in the newspapers, and i think "OMG that would be the most awesome CM scenario ever created, i cant continue my life without it!", and then i start designing that scenario. But scenario design is often a lot of work, especially when you are recreating a big historical battle with an accurate map built from satelite images, and that' s where the expected cheers come into play. They are what keeps me going, even if i start getting bored during the design process. I am not threatening to stop making scenarios if i dont get feedback like umlaut, but it' s a matter of fact that a lack of feedback reduces my motivation to make big and complex battles. When i say feedback though i am not solely talking about the aforementioned "cheers", if you didnt like my scenarios, constructive critique is appreciated too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 If someone isn't self motivated then they won't make very many scenarios. It is a lot of work and it is nice to know if someone else even knows that what you create exists, but even if someone receives a great deal of acclaim and endless downloads they will still need to be self motivated if they plan on creating anything more than one or two scenarios. Even some people who have put stuff on the release CD have only made one or two and then decided that they don't want to continue making stuff. Granted, designers will probably reach that point more quickly if they are putting stuff up on the repository, but at some point if the motivation to create doesn't come from within then the desire to create is going to depart. Whether the motivation is gone after one or two or whether it is gone after five or six everyone who designs something for CMx2 will reach the point where they wonder whether they want to place that other building on the map or if they would rather just take a nap instead. Feedback, cheers, and acclamation only delays the point where you wonder if the effort is worth it or not. Feedback and acclamation will not make that feeling go away. Feedback and acclamation will only delay its arrival. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 I am not trying to start a Flame war. I just think expectations of what users should do is a little unrealistic. If you want to improve the designer experience, it would be much better to get designers and those interested in design to somehow function more together and to be a group involved community. As I said, the meaningful comments will only matter from your peers, those that also design. I thick the best complement I ever received was from a designer that wanted me to provide a scenario for his masters tournament, then only to see many players complain about it before they even started to play it. But those that stayed in the tournament, many mentioned it was one of the best scenarios, they ever played. I few thought it was crap, because they were bit by a concept or two within its design. All I know, I made a battle worthy of talented players. But , you will never get what you are looking for with the present concepts of what you are wishing for. It really comes down to if you are a person that likes doing it and if you are willing to put the extra effort in to give some type of enjoyment to others. With the added work it takes in CMX2, It appears many of us are not that motivated to give to others. Myself included. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grunt_GI Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Maybe a lack of feedback means that the scenario is of, well, just standard quality, that it doesnt stand out among the rest. I know from my own commenting behavior that i only give feedback at the BFC Repository or here at the forums if something really impressed me, positively or negatively. Another reason for why i dont often give feedback is because i often download lots of scenarios in one big 'Repository-looting-orgy' and then only play them months after downloading them. If something then doesnt turn out to be truely exceptional work, i dont really feel like i want to go look the Repository page up and leave a comment. I personally make scenarios only for myself (or mostly) and most import for me is the feedback of the people who volunteer for testing, and they often give me very helpful and accurate feedback. For all the others, if they like my scenariios, that is great, if they dont, well, life is cruel. Feedback from non-testers is welcome but not really necessary for me. Agusto also hit on a big point for me. I am also a binge downloader, especially when I get a new game or module and it may take me a long time to play all my loot, so to speak. If scenario makers want more and faster feedback, I would recommend using the forum here..I have play tested and provided feedback on a number of scenarios and campaigns and have found the give and take with a dedicated scenario maker to be quite rewarding, since the feedback is more timely and useful. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerMike Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Making scenarios in CMx2 is harder than it was in CMx1 days. The bar has been raised considerably imho. It is a lot of work. A month for a scenario minimum in my case. Heck, I play very little. Design takes up most of my time. After havong made my first stock scenario in RT I was so excited. I made a lot more post release. I skipped BS and dedicated my time to beef up content for RT. Now I am making stock stuff for Bulge. I consider it a privilege. Doing what I can to make games likes this (of which there are very few) feasable. It is great to get feedback and perhaps even some appreciation. But I will make stuff and release anyways. Because I want this game to last. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 (edited) ... the nature of scenarios (length of time before the player actually gets around to completing). This is terribly true. I have a bunch of scenarios I've downloaded from various places that I have had for years, but not yet played. I am currently playing one that is - I think - about 6 years old (Bloody St Omer, by @Fredrocker)*. I have a list of notes and observations about this excellent scenario that is currently four (4) pages long ... and I strongly suspect I might be wasting my time, simply because of the age of the scenario. Nevertheless, over the last year or so, I've started providing detailed feedback on the PBEM scenarios I've played direct to the designer (rather than publicly), but given that I only finish 4 or 5 scenarios a year, that's still not a great quantity of feedback compared to the number of scenarios out there. * and even older than that when you consider it is an extract from a campaign, which is itself a port of a campaign originally created for CMAK (or CMBO?). @SlySniper: meaningful comments will only matter from your peers, those that also design. This is mostly true, I think. It is definitely nice to hear unsolicited feedback from players who enjoyed a scenario, but in general they have little idea of the limitations and constraints of scenario design, nor the effort involved in 'simple' things. As a case in point, @JasonC has some fairly trenchant things to say about scenario design, which is fair enough and in some cases interesting, but the body of his comments makes it abundantly clear he has never opened the editor nor attempted to create a scenario in CMx2. For example. Experienced scenario designers will readily recognise the problems here. Directed feedback from playtesters is generally of a lot more practical use. Edit: re-reading that last line, it occurs to me that feedback serves a couple of purposes. By 'practical use' I meant feedback that I can use to improve current and future scenarios. Which is definitely one use for feedback. But it isn't the only one - unsolicited feedback is really useful for validating the existence and effort designers have put into something - a simple "I like this thing you made" can really make a designer's day. Edited June 21, 2015 by JonS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agusto Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 (edited) If someone isn't self motivated then they won't make very many scenarios. I fully agree with you on that. I am not sure whether or not your post was a direct reply to mine because you didnt quote me, but my point was that when i get bored in the middle of making a scenario, it' s other peoples interest in my work that motivates me to keep going despite i dont really want to any more. The word "cheers" maybe was a bad choice in my previous post, i appreciate any kind of interest or reasonable feedback. Personally i am fine with the status quo. When i feel the need for feedback, i do as grunt_AI said, i come to the forum, i open a thread in the general section of the CM game i am designing the scenario for, and in no time there are 30 comments. Feedback, cheers, and acclamation only delays the point where you wonder if the effort is worth it or not. Feedback and acclamation will not make that feeling go away. Feedback and acclamation will only delay its arrival. One day we' ll all die. You will die, i will die, slysniper will die and one day our sun will die and mankind as a whole with it. And if that isnt enough, one day the universe will come to its end, and as space and time as we know them cease to exist, everything everyone will have ever done will lose its meaning as causality breaks apart. All the things we do to stay alive as an individual and as a species, like eating, drinking and having sex are hence nothing but futile attempts to delay the inevitable, though i would not want to live a single day without them, or would you? I am not trying to start a Flame war. I know, i just thought that the situation had the potential for one Edited June 21, 2015 by agusto 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 One day we' ll all die. You will die Not me! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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