Dense Fog - can we ever get REALLY DENSE fog?

[Aragorn2002]

The game editor, play with the parameters. There's some early foggy morning campaign scenarios, I think, but nobody's pushed for an extreme.

Okay, I did some experimenting with heavy and dense fog. I'm sorry to say it doesn't at all look like we were used to in CMBO/CMBB. This is no fog, not even a light one. These settings may have influence upon LOS, but they do nothing for the atmosphere.

[sburke]

Okay, I did some experimenting with heavy and dense fog. I'm sorry to say it doesn't at all look like we were used to in CMBO/CMBB. This is no fog, not even a light one. These settings may have influence upon LOS, but they do nothing for the atmosphere.

I am not sure what you are trying but I am working on one that uses dense fog in winter conditions and I am finding it very atmosphereic. Are my pixeltruppen still able to see their hands in front of their eyes? Yes, but a tank a few blocks away is an indistinctive blurry object.

Perhaps due to being really a completely different game CMBO/CMBB handled it differently and maybe a little less realistic? I tend to avoid using CMx1 games as a comparison of what conditions should look like.

[Aragorn2002]

Sburke, whatever I do, I don't get anything near that effect. Could you please post a screenshot of that fog?

[ChrisND]

Sburke, whatever I do, I don't get anything near that effect. Could you please post a screenshot of that fog?

Actually, could you post a screenshot as well of what you see with the camera close to the ground? It helps everyone concerned to have actual images to base the discussion.

[Aragorn2002]

Normal Dude, I will as soon as I figured out how to do it. But there's hardly anything to see close to the ground.

[sburke]

Sburke, whatever I do, I don't get anything near that effect. Could you please post a screenshot of that fog?

Here you go, a bunch of them. Some of the shots are zoomed in so you lose the effect of distance, but there are enough there you'll get the idea.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=109876

I think part of the issue may be perception. What does "dense" mean, it is a very subjective term. What might be more helpful would be if some tests were run to indicate what it's impact is on spotting.

For example just tossing some numbers

lt fog 500 m

Heavy fog 200 m

Dense fog 100 m

That might be say noon. At 7am they might all drop by half. I think the actual visual will be impacted by the hardware you run on so it becomes more difficult to align perception with game impact.

As Normal Dude suggested post some shots, let's see what you get and include your graphic card info.

[sburke]

Just ran a quick test. I lined up 20 scout teams and 20 tanks on billiard terrain with an FO in a 4 story building looking at them. The scouts and tanks were set up in around 30m increments. I ran it with dense fog

At 9am Nov 1943. The FO could only spot units out to about 150m.

At 6am they could not spot anything even at 50m

In both cases they were still able to get a lot of sound contacts.

If you turn off icons it gets eerie as visually you have no indication anything is out there.

However terrain which is probably what a lot of folks will base their observations on is not obscured much. It will get hazy from your point of view, but you can always move the camera up close.

[Aragorn2002]

Sburke, thank you for the screenshots. I can't figure out how to post them and since they are more or less the same as the ones in your link it won't add anything.

Perhaps Steve or someone actually from BF can give us information about fog?

Btw, my videocard is a ATI Radeon HD 5700series, which supports the highest settings for most games I'm playing. My processor (if that has anything to do with it) is AMD Athlon IIx4 640 3000Mhz. But as I said I don't think it is a system problem. The fog just ain't in the game.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=108510&highlight=ATI+Radeon

[sburke]

Sburke, thank you for the screenshots. I can't figure out how to post them and since they are more or less the same as the ones in your link it won't add anything.

Perhaps Steve or someone actually from BF can give us information about fog?

Btw, my videocard is a ATI Radeon HD 5700series, which supports the highest settings for most games I'm playing. My processor (if that has anything to do with it) is AMD Athlon IIx4 640 3000Mhz. But as I said I don't think it is a system problem. The fog just ain't in the game.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=108510&highlight=ATI+Radeon

One of my favorite threads. Everything you'd ever want to know about posting.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=97288

[Aragorn2002]

Thank you, Sburke.

[stikkypixie]

For what's it worth, I did a side by side comparison between a clear day and a dense fog day and this is what it looks like.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ycfhmvqpc7uyzpx/fog.png

I trust that the LOS of the troops are adjusted correctly, but visually it looks more like overcast than anything else. Or light foggy at best. I have a ATI HD5850.

[Aragorn2002]

Thank you, stikkypixie, I think the long and the short of it is that fog simply isn't implemented visually yet. As you say, no doubt the LOS is adjusted correctly, but that adds little to the atmosphere of the game. I really, really hope that this will get some attention, since for me fog is essential, especially when we go to the eastern front and the Ardennes. Smoke is already implemented, so fog shouldn't be that difficult, one would say. Might be wrong.

[sburke]

I wouldn't disagree. There is no Fog of war even in fog for terrain. That was almost a really bad pun... While it does get hazy at a distance you can only really tell when enemy units are on the screen. That then becomes the difficult part. You don't have a good visual cue as to expected LOS. You can still see the building 500 meters away even though you can't see the tank in front of the building only 100 meters away. I can't say I understand the technical difficulties in portraying fog the way a player would be expected to think it would be.

[MG TOW]

Well I'm happy the visual representation is there now so I have an idea fog is setting the range. Visually it works. Although I would like to see fog distance referenced from the player camera. i.e. at the end of 150m I see a white cloud, inside the 150m it is clear, as I move the camera forward the nearby fog bank moves with me.

[Vanir Ausf B]

One issue with fog and haze is that the graphical effect doesn't play well with shaders and shadows, at least not in CMBN 2.01.

CMBN 2.01 light fog (zoomed in). Shaders and shadows OFF.

Light fog with shaders ON, shadows OFF

Light fog with shadows and shaders ON

[hoolaman]

I wouldn't disagree. There is no Fog of war even in fog for terrain. That was almost a really bad pun... While it does get hazy at a distance you can only really tell when enemy units are on the screen. That then becomes the difficult part. You don't have a good visual cue as to expected LOS. You can still see the building 500 meters away even though you can't see the tank in front of the building only 100 meters away. I can't say I understand the technical difficulties in portraying fog the way a player would be expected to think it would be.

This is the best example of why the targeting tool is NOT a LOS tool as claimed by BFC.

[Davek555]

Sburke, thank you for the screenshots. I can't figure out how to post them and since they are more or less the same as the ones in your link it won't add anything.

Perhaps Steve or someone actually from BF can give us information about fog?

Btw, my videocard is a ATI Radeon HD 5700series, which supports the highest settings for most games I'm playing. My processor (if that has anything to do with it) is AMD Athlon IIx4 640 3000Mhz. But as I said I don't think it is a system problem. The fog just ain't in the game.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=108510&highlight=ATI+Radeon

I have the same video card...Radeon HD 5770. I can see the fog fine, my problem is it makes the terrain look very blocky. Light fog is not too bad, but dense fog is just about unplayable because of this effect. Might be a driver issue or maybe some kind of setting in the Control Panel.

[sburke]

This is the best example of why the targeting tool is NOT a LOS tool as claimed by BFC.

I am not sure I understand what you mean, but I suspect folks are once again jumping to conclusions that aren't supported by actual facts. A little testing would go a long way towards understanding how fog works (or doesn't)

See pictures below. This is in iron mode so we will see exactly what fellow units this tank can see out of the oodles present. Notice the proximity of that infantry team. Also notice how over distance the units are getting hazier, that would be the same effect on terrain. Those tanks are about 30m apart.

Okay so it sees.. absolutely nothing. Pretty good fog eh? And before you comment that it is facing the wrong way, there is an FO team in a building directly in front of this tank and it has the same effect. It can't see this tank.

Now let's check the LOS tool... hmm wow 3 meters!!! That is as far as it can see, 4 meters is out of LOS. I'd say that was pretty darn dense. Geez I better rethink the settings I was gonna have in this scenario...

That actually kind of freaked me out when I saw that. I was shocked when MikeyD said it was 15m.

Here is a church at 338 meters. See it? I know where it is so I can definitely see it, however you have to admit it is pretty fuzzy and that tank can not target ANYTHING past 3 meters.

My statement was it gets hard to tell just by looking what you will see as you can see terrain items your units can not. If the terrain effect for you was exactly as it was for these units you would see exactly 3 meters. I think the game would be pretty much useless at that point. As it is I can still play this scenario and have my units fighting in ridiculous LOS conditions. I call that a happy medium. The LOS tool however tells you exactly what your limitations are so in this case I'd have to say BFC's "claim" stands. It actually always has, folks just don't appreciate the nuance of it. Assuming you can't target a unit in an AS because the LOS tool shows no target for the ground level in the AS is an incorrect assumption. The tool wasn't wrong, the assumption you made based on the data the tool gave you however was wrong. Yes it is a bit of a pain figuring out exactly how battle is gonna play out and those dips in the terrain become really important. This isn't ASL. it is a helluva lot more complicated and that is all good stuff.

I think players are far too fixated on playing this with too much information. Let go a little bit, stop trying to figure out the odds to the decimal point of everything you do and just play the game. Damn 3 meters.... This is going to be an interesting first hour.

[stikkypixie]

Can you post this test scenario up? I want to know how it looks like on mine.

[Baneman]

Actually the only problem I have with the Target-is-LoS tool is that if a unit ( eg. Truck, jeep etc. ) doesn't have a gun, you can't check LoS from their position - which is kinda annoying - what, they don't have eyes ?

But only annoying, you can always plot another unit to that location and check from their endpoint. Still, it does add another straw to the player's workload.

[hoolaman]

I am not sure I understand what you mean, but I suspect folks are once again jumping to conclusions that aren't supported by actual facts. A little testing would go a long way towards understanding how fog works (or doesn't)

What makes you think anyone is jumping to conclusions?

The OP was making a point about graphical representation of fog, not the game effects.

As for my point, the tank essentially cannot fire its weapons at all in these conditions simply because there is no LOS. Sound contact 10m ahead? Too bad. Does that make sense to you?

There were many examples where LOF=/=LOS and the two functions in the old games would be superior. I haven't played the last couple of versions of the engine though so I'm not sure what has been fixed.

[Wicky]

In CM1 there was a weapons splash effect when area targeting short of the target. This was most noticeable with flame throwers, and could be useful in night battles when LOS stopped short of a target you know was out there and wanted to suppress or even destroy.

In CMBN I use target light - area target and there is still noticeable suppressive effects beyond LOS.

[sburke]

Can you post this test scenario up? I want to know how it looks like on mine.

I'm away from my CM computer at the moment, but I just set a building on a plain map, bought an FO, 20 tanks and 20 scout teams then lined them all up. I set the conditions to a bunch of different settings to watch the effect. I believe the posted shots are 5 am Nov 9th 1943. Dense fog and lt. snow. If the time is set later say 9am the LOS kicks out to 150+ m (on really flat grass terrain.) If I set the conditions to clear, at 5am LOS is almost 400m.

What makes you think anyone is jumping to conclusions?

The OP was making a point about graphical representation of fog, not the game effects.

As for my point, the tank essentially cannot fire its weapons at all in these conditions simply because there is no LOS. Sound contact 10m ahead? Too bad. Does that make sense to you?

The OP said nothing about LOS, the OP was as you said only concerned about the graphical representation of fog. You somehow jumped to a conclusion that the targeting tool is not a LOS tool. In other words any reference back to the OPs statement has nothing to do with what you said.

So getting back to your statement, no I don't think it makes sense a tank just area fire randomly to places it can't see. For all the tank knows there is a tree 3 meters ahead. You know better, it does not. Sound contacts in a fog this dense? If I let the turn run a bit that tank as I had previously stated will get loads of sound contacts... and it has no idea where those enemy units really are. In fact I'd have to say I think that is kind of gamey. You want to area fire at a sound contact. You know the way is clear because you can see the terrain when your unit can't. So it is cruising along and ahead is a barn. The barn blocks LOS to a sound contact, so you maneuver the tank to avoid hitting the barn that it can't see....WTF? And then fire on it? And we are gonna complain about the LOS tool? Granted it is a game and the only way to actually play it is to have the player know things that the units can't know and we all play our units based on the sum total of what we know regardless of whether individual units know it or not. However to have units actually try to target things they can't see and have no way of knowing if they can fire safely in that direction... yeah I am pretty happy with the current game setting.

As to jumping to conclusions... well you just said

There were many examples where LOF=/=LOS and the two functions in the old games would be superior. I haven't played the last couple of versions of the engine though so I'm not sure what has been fixed.

You aren't even playing the updated version and are making statements about functionality. I'd say that is by definition jumping to conclusions. To be fixed, things have to have been broken. I don't think we have any unanimity about that. Comparing it to CMx1 is simply a waste of time. That is essentially a completely different game and much closer to an ASL style, "let me get my rule book out and verify LOS compared" to CMx2.

[sburke]

Just to clarify before we go sideways in this discussion talking about two different things.

Topic 1- Fog as portrayed to the player - This one is inherently a little difficult and subjective. Kind of like War movie lighting mode. The fog as displayed to the player is to give them a feel that fog effects are in play, but not necessarily to the degree they are in play. That could get absolutely insane in really dense fog conditions at night. You wouldn't see squat rendering the game virtually unplayable. If you want to verify that simply set your monitor contrast down really dark so you can see hardly anything.

Topic 2 - Gameplay mechanics. How to understand your unit's perception of conditions. For example in the pics posted above you can see (faintly) a church at 300+ meters. Our units however using the LOS tool can not. They are seeing a blank wall of fog that unfortunately you have to imagine to appreciate. If it were portrayed in game... see topic 1.

For the sake of playability BF has to balance the two. Now as to specifically how fog appears on your machine, that is a discussion to have with Phil. I have posted shots of how it looks on mine and I think that is as intended, but Phil would have to confirm that. Between shaders, LOD etc etc I expect there are a ton of things that go into producing the effect and how they come into play is for the man behind the curtain to explain.

My machine -

ATI Radeon HD 5700 Series

AMD Phenom II x4 3.4Ghz

6 Gb Corsair Ram

Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit

MSI 7599 motherboard

[A Canadian Cat]

If the terrain effect for you was exactly as it was for these units you would see exactly 3 meters. I think the game would be pretty much useless at that point. As it is I can still play this scenario and have my units fighting in ridiculous LOS conditions.

I had not thought of this until @sburke went to the extreme. As he said if the game blocked the view after 3m we would be really unhappy. It seems like one could make the argument that the fog visuals should be stronger so that we have more of an impression of lower visibility. I think that @sburke's demo shows that it would not really be practical for the fog visual to actually equal the LOS conditions and still allow us to play the game.

Having said that, some of the screen shots with LOS of 150m where the fog visual only slightly impedes the camera's view seem to indicate that the fog visual is too weak. There is a balance that needs to be struck: show us that the fog is there and having an effect but do not make it impossible to navigate and play the game.