Dense Fog - can we ever get REALLY DENSE fog?

[Agua]

I've never been a whiner, and probably closer to a fanboi (but really only to the extent of not tolerating what I've perceived as uninformed or ridiculous criticism), but the GL dense fog, just isn't there.

I realize it's only a graphic effect, but boy do I miss the cut-it-with-a-knife stuff we had with CMx1. Is there any practical way that it could be introduced in CMx2?

[Aragorn2002]

I've never been a whiner, and probably closer to a fanboi (but really only to the extent of not tolerating what I've perceived as uninformed or ridiculous criticism), but the GL dense fog, just isn't there.

I realize it's only a graphic effect, but boy do I miss the cut-it-with-a-knife stuff we had with CMx1. Is there any practical way that it could be introduced in CMx2?

I'd like to second that question. I love fog and I miss it.

[Guest]

The fog should be pretty dense in CMFI. Are you playing Gustav Line and not seeing it? If so please send me a screenshot and your GPU specs. It may be a bug we need to deal with.

[Agua]

I'm seeing fog which really only, graphically, appears "thick" cummulatively and at a distance. The cmx1 stuff I'm talking about was, again visually, about as thick as disapating smoke from mortars.

I'll send a screenie.

[MikeyD]

I just gave a look, myself. The fog effect tends to dissipate somewhat if you're viewing from higher 'eye of God' camera elevations. An old joke of mine going back to CMSF days is that players have an unfortunate tendency to raise camera elevation until the detail disappears then stay at that height.

Out of curiosity I did a quick LOS test. Light fog (in my test) LOS was limited to 720m, Heavy fog LOS was limited to 400m, and Dense fog LOS only goes out to 160m.

[Agua]

I don't suppose anyone still has CMx1 installed and could provide a screencap of what I'm talking about?

[Edited to add the following:] MikeyD - yes, the effect upon LoS is fine. Again, it is a matter of graphics only. I recall, but never did understand specfically what was being described, that the old cmx1 used something called fog emulation table(s)(?).

[Markus86]

isn't 160 metres a bit much for dense fog?

[LUCASWILLEN05]

I have been in fog where you could not even see your hand if you stretched your arm out to full length. Doesn't happen very often but I;d say 160m looks about right for more typical dense fog.

[James Crowley]

I just gave a look, myself. The fog effect tends to dissipate somewhat if you're viewing from higher 'eye of God' camera elevations. An old joke of mine going back to CMSF days is that players have an unfortunate tendency to raise camera elevation until the detail disappears then stay at that height.

Out of curiosity I did a quick LOS test. Light fog (in my test) LOS was limited to 720m, Heavy fog LOS was limited to 400m, and Dense fog LOS only goes out to 160m.

Similarly motivated by curiosity, I tested (briefly) with dense fog and got clear (blue) LoS at up to 357m. I was quite surprised.

Also, I agree that the graphical representation is not that profound, on my system at least.

[MikeyD]

My mini-test of fog was 9am on a November morning. Noon in July would've probably been different.

[sburke]

I've lived in the bay area for 15 years and a good portion of that in San Francisco. We are experts on fog. You want it really dense, night time and fog. Daytime fog even here is never so thick you can't see your hand. Hell even at night it never gets that thick.

Lucaswillen05, where the heck do you live that you get that kind of pea soup?

We need a Fog Grog. Foie Gras?

[Broadsword56]

I've lived in the bay area for 15 years and a good portion of that in San Francisco. We are experts on fog. You want it really dense, night time and fog. Daytime fog even here is never so thick you can't see your hand. Hell even at night it never gets that thick.

Lucaswillen05, where the heck do you live that you get that kind of pea soup?

We need a Fog Grog. Foie Gras?

In the Normandy battle we're playing now, sburke, the am fog was so thick tankers couldn't see past their gunbarrels, and units on the attack actually got lost for a while, according to the participants' AARs. But this was at 0430 am on June 25, so it would barely have been light then even that close to Summer Solstice.

But I do hope BFC reexamines this for Market Garden and beyond. Dense fog should really be just that, and cut LOS down to assault and pistol range. We'll need that to represent autumn in eastern France and the tactical conditions for battles like Arracourt, for example. And eventually for the Bulge, of course. Maybe a decision was made that "players won't like it," but here's my vote for it anyway.

[slysniper]

I agree, fog should be tested at night.

That is when it is the most limited in viewing distance.

It would be nice if there was even a thicker level of fog within the game.

I know I have seen night time fog many times within my life that was at the max. 50 M in veiwing anything at. And that has been in many different locations, not just prime locations.

But I have only once ever seen fog so thick that I could not drive my car becase I could not see far enough. Even then , , once I turned off the lights, stuck my head out the window so I could look down and view the road. I could see the painted road lines for about 20 feet.

But that is a exception. Not the norn. (that location was swamp and had hot springs in it. ) A common area to have problems with very thick fog.

The other thing I wonder is does it vary as to how far a unit can see depending on direction within the game. To model fog correctly. It really should be inconsistant and changing constantly as to how far it blocks ones view. I dont think the game does that. Once you know the range within the game, it is easy to plan on how far your units will see.

[MikeyD]

Fog so dense it shuts down gameplay is kind'a self-defeating. Like insisting on nights so black you can't see your hand in front of your face, or terrain so muddy or snow so deep that nothing moves. You'll play 1-2 games then avoid it like the plague afterward.

That being said, I just now tested. November 9, 6:30 am Heavy fog. LOS - 15m

[sburke]

Fog so dense it shuts down gameplay is kind'a self-defeating. Like insisting on nights so black you can't see your hand in front of your face, or terrain so muddy or snow so deep that nothing moves. You'll play 1-2 games then avoid it like the plague afterward.

That being said, I just now tested. November 9, 6:30 am Heavy fog. LOS - 15m

Holy crap. 15m? Dang even the PzF30 is gonna be opening up then. Well the scenario vKleist and I are about to start launches at I think 7am or so in November. Gonna be real interesting for the first couple hours.

[Ales Dvorak]

But I have only once ever seen fog so thick that I could not drive my car becase I could not see far enough. Even then , , once I turned off the lights, stuck my head out the window so I could look down and view the road. I could see the painted road lines for about 20 feet.

Exactly the same thing happened to me and I also reacted the same way you do. That was ...ummm... 25 years ago

[Broadsword56]

That's great news about the test showing 15m visibility.

Here's why it's not self-defeating to have real dense fog that shuts down visibility to this range:

Let's say you want to represent a typical Bulge situation, where the Germans used the poor weather/visibility to infiltrate through heavy woods between a couple of US positions prior to attack.

You have one master map with three German objectives on it. You slice and dice that map into several versions and place it into a campaign file. The German starting positions on each map would depend on whether/how many objectives they captured in the previous map.

So, on that first battle map you'd want to be able to have dense fog, snowy ground and sero-dark-thirty time of day. The Germans would try to get as much of the Objective 1 line as possible to reach their jumpoff point. But the Americans would have a few patrols between their outposts, as well as some mines. The fog gives the Germans cover to move but there's the chance of a close-range patrol encounter (fun!), or blundering into a previously unkown outpost. etc. The German objective would be terrain objectives (reaching their intended start line for the dawn attack) and the American ones would be "spot" unit objectives (seeing any of the infiltrating Germans spoils their suprise.)

Then you could change the weather (fog lifts) and light (morning overcast) in battle map #2 and the Germans would start that map from the positions they managed to achieve on the previous infiltration map.

Credit to sburke for the concept here -- something we've discussed for use in operational-tactical campaigns.

[Baneman]

"Hinkel ? Hinkel, ist das du ?"

great scene

[slysniper]

WELL, In certain conditions you managed to get veiwing down to 15M, then there is no need for any future adjustments there. That turns the whole map into a close weapon gun shoot out that will be a blood bath and grenade are king location.

Made a scenario like that for a tournament one time, most of the players did not like my scenario, but I thought it was a great test to see if they would understand what they needed to do. I was laughing about it and enjoyed watch some of the AAR's

[sburke]

Made a scenario like that for a tournament one time, most of the players did not like my scenario, but I thought it was a great test to see if they would understand what they needed to do. I was laughing about it and enjoyed watch some of the AAR's

I sense a level of cruelty there...I like it.

[Ithikial_AU]

Forget fog. I had a quick look at the blizzard setting with strong winds in the editor and felt physically ill after 30 seconds - a first for CM. That's a lot of fast moving white particles! Hope there aren't many scenarios that use that weather setting.

[iMolestCats]

Forget fog. I had a quick look at the blizzard setting with strong winds in the editor and felt physically ill after 30 seconds - a first for CM. That's a lot of fast moving white particles! Hope there aren't many scenarios that use that weather setting.

Hahahaha i think it looks freaking epic, i'm just thinking of all of the possibilities .

[Lt Belenko]

Yup, seen some wicked fog. Driving on I-5 near San Diego Bay going 4 MPH. 3 passengers have the doors slightly open looking at the lines on the road because the driver can't see the front of the car.

[Aragorn2002]

Fog so dense it shuts down gameplay is kind'a self-defeating. Like insisting on nights so black you can't see your hand in front of your face, or terrain so muddy or snow so deep that nothing moves. You'll play 1-2 games then avoid it like the plague afterward.

That being said, I just now tested. November 9, 6:30 am Heavy fog. LOS - 15m

Is that an existing scenario? I would like to see that.

[MikeyD]

The game editor, play with the parameters. There's some early foggy morning campaign scenarios, I think, but nobody's pushed for an extreme.