Mortar Death Stars

[GerryCMBB]

Hello All:

Probably has been done before but I am a bit behind as usual. Just finished my first PBEM and most casualties on both sides were due to 81 and 60mm mortars respectively. I must say it affected my enjoyment of the battle a bit. It seemed disproportionate given that there were many MGs on both sides and squads have a fair bit of fire power.

They were used in direct fire so no spotting rounds to watch out for. And when they hit behind the hedgerows, you find you have lost control of your troops at the end of the WEGO minute. So they just sit there and take multiple rounds.

I read that artillery did cause a lot casualties so it is probably a historic representation. Will non-bocage fighting be so affected by these beasts of death?

Sorry for the rant. The game is fascinating and immersive.

Gerry

[sburke]

Sorry for the rant. The game is fascinating and immersive.

Gerry

LOL I think we have all been on the receiving end of this nasty little units. As far as I understand it historically, yes they are being modelled accurately and yeah that can really suck.

As with anything however there is always some kind of way to reply. One option I tried recently with a fair amount of success is displacing frequently. If I had a unit that I was going to release from a covered arc to fire I will give them a pause for maybe 30 seconds and then have them displace, move to another position and either be able to fire from there or just try and set up unnoticed. If a unit had fired on the previous turn I immediately have them displace. Basically the idea is to play whack-a-mole. Don't give the mortars a stationary target. If done well you can even drain your opponents ammo supply while minimizing the impact. You could also set up an ambush. Create a situation where you know they will line that mortar up where you have some ability to retaliate- your own mortar, an assault gun etc. Remember in Wego they have the same disadvantage in issuing orders, If you can manage to get inside the 1 minute Wego limit in developing your tactics you can create some opportunities for yourself.

[Sgt Schultz]

Aye, the on-map mortars can be hurtful.

Map choice becomes more important in QBs. Adequate concealment and enough room to possibly flank into the enemy mortar positions is a plus.

From a scenario design perspective, I strip most/all of the 60s from Ami troops. I have found that the large-bore German guns(75,88,150) cannot exist long in an environment populated by these little bundles-o-doom. The 50s are small enough that a little range can suffice to keep them hidden.

81s are more reasonable from a fun/playabilty perspective imo. They are slower, more expensive and are a bit easier to spot.

I don't have enough QBs under my belt as yet to make an informed decision, but I am leaning towards giving Germans a points bonus in a non-Attacker situation to try and offset the Ami mortar superiority.

[Statisoris]

Historically most casualties on the battlefield were from mortars and other artillery but nevermind you already stated that.

[Taki]

The Mortars inGame are unbalanced. There should be more Time consumtion for Onboardmortars after the First Spotting Round Hits and they make adjustments.

Maybe its realistic but need some Tweak in Game because its a Game. Same with the Tanks Spotting and Engagment Times in General and on the Move. But forget about it. They wont listen.

[beatmasta]

Maybe its realistic but need some Tweak in Game because its a Game.

Actually this one is more of a simulation and tries to represent real life events as close as possible. If you like more game approach, then... I quess you should choose something else.

[sburke]

The Mortars inGame are unbalanced. There should be more Time consumtion for Onboardmortars after the First Spotting Round Hits and they make adjustments.

Maybe its realistic but need some Tweak in Game because its a Game. Same with the Tanks Spotting and Engagment Times in General and on the Move. But forget about it. They wont listen.

There is an alternative, you could simply lower the troop quality of the AI mortar units if you really want them to be less effective. Basically not much different than what in other games would be lowering the difficulty level. However if you are gonna play human opponents, unless you both agree you want to dumb down your mortar guys it is better to figure out tactically how you are gonna beat them.

And actually they do listen. However they are not going to tweak it to make it less difficult at the expense of realism. You can do that yourself by weighting the experience levels of your troops. Issues that really aren't realistic and they will and are adjusting as they figure out ways to do so. Don't assume because they don't immediately adjust something to mean it isn't being reviewed. They need to know any change they make achieves the desired affect, doesn't cause another problem and doesn't completely wipe out the AI. Patience is a good thing, the end result will usually reflect on the time spent in making sure the product is made better.

[Holien]

Aye, the on-map mortars can be hurtful.

Map choice becomes more important in QBs. Adequate concealment and enough room to possibly flank into the enemy mortar positions is a plus.

From a scenario design perspective, I strip most/all of the 60s from Ami troops. I have found that the large-bore German guns(75,88,150) cannot exist long in an environment populated by these little bundles-o-doom. The 50s are small enough that a little range can suffice to keep them hidden.

81s are more reasonable from a fun/playabilty perspective imo. They are slower, more expensive and are a bit easier to spot.

I don't have enough QBs under my belt as yet to make an informed decision, but I am leaning towards giving Germans a points bonus in a non-Attacker situation to try and offset the Ami mortar superiority.

+1 to this and I have too have been hit hard by 60mm with plentiful supply of shells.

I only play designed scenarios and I just hope designers will take this suggestion on board to make for more fun play....

The suggestions on counter measures are good and I will have to remember to apply them, the use of pause a great idea....

[winkelried]

I don't have enough QBs under my belt as yet to make an informed decision, but I am leaning towards giving Germans a points bonus in a non-Attacker situation to try and offset the Ami mortar superiority.

i'll be in for any game as US without mortars as long as the battle is huge - i rarely use them anyway be in for a nasty surprise

[DavidFields]

I question, without posting any data, admittedly, the accuracy of the mortars. Though there will be those that scream about the occasional inaccuracy, my instincts tell me that the mortar rounds should be much, much, more spread--a nuisance and a head's down type of weapon.

As a slightly silly thought, I think of the accuracy of golf pros with a golf ball at 200 yards, compared to these mortars. When I see results clustered around 3-4 action spots from that distance, it is hard for me to think that represents real life, WW2 reality. [ok, ok, ....I know I should stop blaming this stuff on CMSF]

[hoolaman]

For starters mortars in CMSF aren't really all that different to their WWII equivalents, and I can't see why they couldn't achieve quite tight spreads in ideal conditions.

[Boo Radley]

I was just watching my 60mms dropping into an enemy occupied trench with a linear fire order. Right in the trench BAM! BAM!! BAM!!!

It was loverly...

[Sublime]

lol! i saw the thread name.. opened it and lo and behold three of my pbem opponents posted here! and two of them with comments about the lethality of mortars.. (yeah those were mine)

=D

[GerryCMBB]

I can understand 81mm hurting but I think 60mm are too destructive in the game for that caliber. For the people who have read a lot about Normandy, etc. did any books mention 60mms doing so much damage. It is no problem for them to take out a team. I have not seen a MG42 doing that in one minute.

Gerry

[JonS]

Normandy, etc. did any books mention 60mms doing so much damage.

The only book I can hand-on-heart say really describes them in any detail is Charles MacDonald's "Company Commander", which goes through from the Ardennes to the end of the war. It seems reasonable that "Other Clay" by Cawthon might cover them, but I don't remember if he actually does.

[Killkess]

What realy makes me wonder about the effectivness of the mortars is the comparision between mortars and heavy mgs. While a single mortar team is able to whipe out a whole platoon running in the open at 200-300 meters a heavy maschine gun team is barrely able to stop 2 squads charging at the same distance. What also kinda looks strange is the accuracy with which the mortar teams can apply lead to moving targets or almost instantly change targets almost on the other side of the map.

[noxnoctum]

Weren't something like 70%+ of WW2 casualties due to mortar and artillery fire?

[Thomm]

... you find you have lost control of your troops at the end of the WEGO minute. So they just sit there and take multiple rounds.

This is what bugs me the most when I am hit by direct-fire mortars.

Most of the time, there is an easy route of escape, but the troops are pinned and just die slowly. Feels unrealistic, especially if the incoming fire is light (single mortar).

Best regards,

Thomm

[winkelried]

Feels unrealistic, especially if the incoming fire is light (single mortar).

you have ever been under mortar fire?

[sburke]

This is what bugs me the most when I am hit by direct-fire mortars.

Most of the time, there is an easy route of escape, but the troops are pinned and just die slowly. Feels unrealistic, especially if the incoming fire is light (single mortar).

Best regards,

Thomm

I believe there is this old adage - something like if you are still thinking about retreating, it is likely too late. The point is while your opponent was setting up his plans for the turn he was targeting you, if you weren't in that same turn ordering a withdrawal or hitting that mortar team - you lost the orders game. Now your pixeltruppen have to pay for it. I am not so sure that is necessarily a WeGo issue. Once your troops start getting hit, they likely are gonna cower and not take orders anymore. Even if you were playing RT I am not sure how much you could have done at that point.

If there is nothing else around to take the mortar team under fire and disrupt them, you are unfortunately in the position of having been outmaneuvered. Your pixeltruppen not trying to escape may not be unrealistic, movement under mortar fire is extremely risky. You may just end up saving your opponent a few rounds.

[womble]

I can understand 81mm hurting but I think 60mm are too destructive in the game for that caliber. For the people who have read a lot about Normandy, etc. did any books mention 60mms doing so much damage. It is no problem for them to take out a team. I have not seen a MG42 doing that in one minute.

Gerry

And yet it's entirely possible for a mortar strike to do negligible damage, too. It depends on the circumstances. I've seen an MP40 take out an entire team in a minute, and MG42s often do that much or more (though maybe spread across a couple of teams) if I or the AI screw up. I think the reason mortars get fingered as 'overmodelled' is because it can be more difficult to avoid them (especially in direct fire mode), whereas it's easier to handle your troops in such a way as to avoid serious threat from lead-chuckers.

I've yet to have much luck with direct lay 60mm, and have to keep reminding myself to persist and discover how best to employ 'em; it's so much easier to just have 'em one field back firing from a spotter, and they don't seem any less accurate than the times I have had them up front, it's just slower.

[Thomm]

you have ever been under mortar fire?

No. You?

The first video I picked off of Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKSYN-tbNRs

Do you see people staying pinned where they are or running for the nearest cover?

Best regards,

Thomm

[Sublime]

I think they.re fine. the 60mm is destructive because its accurate. Still - most of the 60mms and 81mms only have enough ammo for a turn or two of fire. Thats the drawback to players in WeGO using the mortars - the target may be killed or suppressed enough aftter 30 seconds of fire - but you have to wait to cancel the fire order. Also, someone mentioned there are no spotting rounds for DF mortars. This isnt true, in fact when I pick a new target for my mortar crews, unless its close to whatever I was originally shooting at, theres 30-45 seconds of delay while they fire, observe the round impact, and adjust, and so on.

The fact is any weapon can be very deadly if used correctly. Theres a lot of situations where mortars arent adequate, or dont do the job. It's all a matter of playing style. I find them very deadly, and effective, if used in direct fire. However, that makes them very susceptible to being killed, and often if Im not keeping a close eye on them they end up exhausted (and then useless for several turns until they regain their wind). Simply because men 'moving' will start running if shot at. This is entirely realistic. However an 81mm mortar is heavy.

I think a lot of people arent taking into consideration that perhaps the weapons themselves are realistic. That may not be the issue. What is unrealistic, and cant be helped, is that the majority of games played in CM are one off things. This means both sides engage longer, and are much more willing to take heavy casualties. Because noone is really dying, and because what happens after the battle doesnt matter to the players. Perhaps in campaigns this changes somewhat, but still.

In real life, everyone pretty much does want to live, so they avoid insane moves or fights to the death if they can. And also one side or the other will disengage, or simply choose to attack another time if it looks too hot.

Most CM games I play both sides bang the living crap out of eachother, often the decision is completely obvious before a surrender or cease fire happens, with both sides often taking >50% casualties. IRL this wouldnt happen - especially on the Western Front. Because IRL theres always the next day, and if you lose 50% of your troops taking a small village, how are you going to get to Berlin? Of course, as with everything else, there are exceptions..

[A Canadian Cat]

<snip>As with anything however there is always some kind of way to reply. One option I tried recently with a fair amount of success is displacing frequently. If I had a unit that I was going to release from a covered arc to fire I will give them a pause for maybe 30 seconds and then have them displace, move to another position and either be able to fire from there or just try and set up unnoticed. If a unit had fired on the previous turn I immediately have them displace. Basically the idea is to play whack-a-mole. Don't give the mortars a stationary target. If done well you can even drain your opponents ammo supply while minimizing the impact. You could also set up an ambush.<snip>

Now that sounds like good advice. I am in the middle of a second game against one opponent who is aces at making use of his mortars. I need a strategy to deal with them - sounds like I have one to try now. My first attempt was to get more armor and that helped but I have several Stugs who are short a crew member and my infantry are almost gone - in large part due to his expert use of mortars.

[winkelried]

No. You?

that i dare to ask this question is probably enough of an answer.

The first video I picked off of Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKSYN-tbNRs

Do you see people staying pinned where they are or running for the nearest cover?

Best regards,

Thomm

nice movie.