Crossing 'Low' Bocage.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Yep. For CM purposes, a section of bocage breachable by vehicles without special equipment = hedge.

This. Passable low bocage appears to already be in the game, it just isn't labeled as such.

With regard to Churchhills, I think it would be cool if they had a special ability to perform slow-motion bellyflops over bocage, but that would likely require special coding that BFC is typically loath to do in order to represent rare events.

[Michael Emrys]

My house is only about half an action spot, so a two-storey, single action spot building is smulating maybe 15 rooms.

Hold on a second there. There is something funny about that math. My 500 sq.ft. one bedroom apartment occupies nearly a whole action spot. Even with two stories, an action spot house having 15 rooms implies that none of the rooms are larger than my bathroom (which is just barely big enough for two people to stand up in).

Michael

[Erwin]

Possibly the tank got stuck in that position, and an enterprising PR wonk said, "Hey, get some troops on that thang and it'll make a great photo op!"

[Pak40]

This. Passable low bocage appears to already be in the game, it just isn't labeled as such.

Yes, I suppose the hedge can be used to this effect but then the issue becomes a map designer issue. To date, nobody has really been using the hedge as a passable 'low' bocage, at least not in the stock battles. And, I doubt the hedge has the same cover properties as the low bocage.

[mjkerner]

As much as you pretend to know more than the rest of us about the intricacies of bocage, you are not the definitive source on the subject and this does warrant further discussion. And we are not talking about the typical bocage that is probably referenced in the AARs that you mention.

No, I don't know squat about it firsthand at all. I only know from what I've read from many, many sources over 45 years, and also from family, friends and acquantices/work colleagues I've discussed it with face to face who were there...members of the 82nd and 101st AB divisions and the 8th, 29th, 79th and 1st Infantry Divisions. Most conversations were of particular incidents/actions, but long ago (I think when I first read "Night Drop") I had trouble understanding the difficulty of the bocage country when I'd read about, so I made a point at various times over the years to ask them in particular about bocage. Of course they could very well have been generalizing--just like my home state is the "Dairy State" so all we have is cows and farms here--but it was certainly bad enough to get around in that everyone of these guys thought it was miserable country to fight in because it was so hard to work through without a lot of risk. Beyond St. Lo it was a different story, apparently.

[James Crowley]

On a lighter note. Womble, are you going to the Victory Show - it's practically on your doorstep, lucky devil!

[womble]

Hold on a second there. There is something funny about that math. My 500 sq.ft. one bedroom apartment occupies nearly a whole action spot. Even with two stories, an action spot house having 15 rooms implies that none of the rooms are larger than my bathroom (which is just barely big enough for two people to stand up in).

Michael

My house is a victorian terraced house. The main part is about 4.5m wide by 9m deep, with a 2m x 3m jut on the back. But the main bit is a bit over half an AP. In that space, which is 2 storeys, are 6 brick-walled spaces you could fight or hide in: 2 rooms on each floor plus the stairs and side passage. Maybe 15 rooms is a bit of an overestimate, but a large (by my standards: two of mine knocked together) house with small rooms and some passageways could reach it.

[womble]

On a lighter note. Womble, are you going to the Victory Show - it's practically on your doorstep, lucky devil!

"Victory Show?" I would ask, but I'll Google it...

Ooo. Didn't know anything about that! It's not quite close enough to show up on local radar, but yes, eminently reachable. I may even have that weekend available. Thanks for the heads-up!

[hoolaman]

The facts are that there are varying degrees of bocage(height and width) all over Normandy. For simplicity sake, CMBN has narrowed these down to two choices, normal and low.

I'm talking about the "low" bocage that is roughly the height of a short man and sometimes shorter. A typical example can be found here not far from St Mere Eglise: The left side seems to be a typical example of "low" bocage, the right side would be the "normal" bocage. You can use Google street view and see many more examples all over Normandy yourself. Most "low" bocage that I've seen is quite accessible to a human.

Sure you can cherry pick bits of bocage that are quite sparse and have holes in them, but even in your example above, if you click down the road past the next T intersection, there is low bocage on both sides of the road that look like they would be VERY difficult to push through for infantry, even without Germans on the other side.

I tend to agree though that AFVs should be able to cross the low bits, the bank is lower, and the vegetation is more likely to be crushed down rather than act like a solid wall.

One thing a lot of people seem to miss (even BFC) is that the value of the cullin plow (and explosives) is that it actually bulldozed the berm out of the way, allowing a breach that allowed any sort of vehicles to enter the field without having to traverse a giant speedbump.

BFC might have painted themselves in a corner for the Commonwealth module if the Brits don't get Cullin plows and there are good historical records of Churchills crossing the bocage.

What might be cool is if the "gap" tile simulated a more sparse patch that allowed infantry to cross AND allowed regular tanks to attempt to drive over. It seems to be well established that the thickest parts of the boacge would not be crossed by anything.

[Paper Tiger]

I agree that the Churchill should be able to crash through bocage. However, from reading units diaries of Churchill units that did this, it was very hard on the crews and so should not be without some risk to them.

[Pak40]

Sure you can cherry pick bits of bocage that are quite sparse and have holes in them, but even in your example above, if you click down the road past the next T intersection, there is low bocage on both sides of the road that look like they would be VERY difficult to push through for infantry, even without Germans on the other side.

Actually, I picked one of the more formidable looking 'low' bocages that I could find. There were others that looked lower and thinner. However, I will concede that it seems that the bocages next to the roads seem to be managed (trimmed or sprayed). I imagine the bocages in the fields are allowed a little more growth.

Let's say you were walking next to a low bocage. Can anyone honestly say that they wouldn't be able to get over these obstacles if the were suddenly under fire from the other side of the field?? You bet your sweet ass you'd get over it in a hurry. You would find a way.

Obviously assaulting under fire across a bocage is an unwise tactic. It would leave the soldiers in vulnerable state for however long it took them to climb over. IMO this should be modeled in the game because it is possible and often there are times when there are no enemy to oppose you.

[JonS]

So how will that square with the Guards Churchills crashing, in large numbers, through Bocage in the Caumont battles?

An interesting example. You do realise that very large numbers of Churchills ended up stranded in those selfsame hedgerows they were 'crashing' through?

And why didn't British armour use cullin type devices if they were the only viable option?

Actually, the British did have *very* small numbers of tanks with Cullin-type devices on them. So small that I'd be surprised if BFC ever bothered to model them*. But they did have them. Still, as far as BLUECOAT is concerned - which is the 'Caumont battles' you're talking about above - the 11th and Guards Armoured Divisions were, tada, stuck on the roads because they were unable to maneauvre cross country.

Pointing out things that happened as a matter of historical fact is not whinging.

Maybe not, but it might be viewed that way when you mangle your 'historical facts'

Jon

* but scen designers could add single US Shermans with cutters to otherwise British units to stand in for these.

[Statisoris]

Since the Commonwealth tanks won't get Cullin plows I have a feeling that BFC might ease up and allow Churchills to smash some bocage. Knowing the way BF does things though, it will only be low bocage that can get smashed by the Churchills.

[LemuelG]

I can happily live with the status quo, so long as designers remember to leave breaks in their hedgerows. Bocage that can't be passed at all by infantry is frankly, incongruous, annoying... and not at all realistic.

Yeah I said it, soldiers navigated through hedges without demolitions or bulldozers. It was done, very often. I don't care if cows are routinely foiled by it - they can't climb, and are several times the size of the average human, incapable of co-operating and using tools, etc etc.

There is no sensible case for making bocage impassable to infantry, unless you also create a section that has a small gap to represent a spot where soldiers can force their way through, or climb over... oh wait - they exist, please use them often when designing your maps. Do it for the AI, if not the player.

I see no need to encourage people to try and drive tanks over bocage - you can have it, with a very high chance of bogging or incurring damage to your running-gear.

[James Crowley]

I wasn't because I do not believe that they were. The two primary armoured units doing the 'crashing' were the Coldstream and the Scots Guards and by close of play both had lost around 14 tanks apiece. However those losses were down to a combination of mines, an '88' and a trio of Jagdpanthers from memory, rather than mechanical difficulties. I would be interested to see any evidence that traversing the bocage, in this instance, caused anything other than damage to individual crew members.

And even if your statement is accurate, it doesn't alter the fact that a large number of tanks crossed bocage sucessfully; so hardly a singular exception to the rule.

The 11th and Guards had Shermans, primarily, so hardly surprising. I've never suggested that Shermans should be able to traverse tall bocage, only low bocage which, arguably, isn't really bocage at all.

I'm curious as to what facts you think I have 'mangled'?

[JSB]

Bocage as represented in the game (a more than 2 meters vegetal wall) wasn't the absolute rule. Most often, boundaries between the fields looked (and still look in some places) more like low bocage + trees.

Earth and stone embankments systematically planted with various trees - especially oaks - on top of it, favouring deep rooting were and still are real obstacles.

What can be seen today with Google street view is far from 1944 landscape.

The trees that were used for firewood have been cut in large number along the roads, lot of hedges destroyed.

Living myself in a bocage area near Normandy, I observed by comparing with a 1949 aerial picture that each current field around my village was divided into four or five small fields all surrounded by bocage and planted with appletrees.

Leaving the road to enter a field was like entering a labyrinth, as crossing a hedge didn't allow you to see or advance a few dozens yards further.

[Broadsword56]

I can happily live with the status quo, so long as designers remember to leave breaks in their hedgerows.

+1

It really doesn't take any longer to put gaps, thin spots, varying lengths of hedge, low and high bocage, etc., to make a realistic and interesting hedgerow. It adds a whole new dimension to the infantry battle when you know there are likely to be some spots where your men can get a good LOS, crawl through a hole, or cross through the vegetation to infiltrate or assault. The "green wall" effect is a game-wrecker and unrealistic.

[Holien]

Please quote what sources so I can read what you have read?

Yes, when I get home I will give you some. There are many accounts in personal memoirs as well, of which there have been a lot of new releases in the last couple of years, as the veteran ranks are dwindling.

So still waiting to see what sources?

You made a post about talking to Vets etc.... which is good that you have but I guess you never phrased the question could you climb over bocage or find a way through?

If you said how was bocage then they will certainly answer it was hell... It was and no one here has ever disputed that.

Don't forget, these are field dividers "grown" over hundreds of years with all the roots and stones etc., firmly imbedded in them, not like the hedge around my neighbors house.

Thanks I did not know that it was not like your neighbours hedge...

I just like PAK40 have posted that soldiers would find a way through and if any soldiers on the forum think not then I will listen to them to understand why. (Obstacle training course anyone?)

As others have mentioned if designers bother to make maps as described I have no problem and by discussing it here it will highlight to those designers that read the thread that they should adopt a different approach as long as the game keeps bocage as impassible to everything.

+1 to all those suggestions.

For me the compromise if it could be changed (and maybe it can not) would IMO to allow Low Bocage to be passable by tanks and troops but taking longer than hedges and hence more exposed. (BTS introduced this concept of Low Bocage and I bet they are really glad they did....)

High Bocage well that could stay impassable, but as has been mentioned quite a few times Churchills could get over this and I think infantry would still find a way through without recourse to Demo Charges, but that is just my opinion which is mine to have and mine to express as long as BTS does not kick me off their forum for saying it...

If they said please don't discuss any more then I would accept that as you mention their house their rules...

As you are as much a guest as anyone else asking others to stop discussing things is questionable.

[mjkerner]

Holien,

Sorry, I had a honey-do list waiting for me when I got home last night, and it took time to go through my books.

"Bocage is not just a wall with shrubs on it." For that, any number of sources from wikipedia to a botany textbook would be good, but I didn't get the impression you thought that.

As for it's difficulty in passing through or over in battle ("soldiers can't just go though or over it"), the following books in varying degrees discuss bocage fighting, with the overt or implicit proposition that it wasn't an infantry or armor tactic (except by blasting or using "Cullins") used with any regularity:

All American All the Way (Phil Nordyke)

The GI Offensive in Europe (Peter Mansoor)

Decision in Normandy (Carlo D'Este)

A Foot Soldier For Patton (Michael Bilder)

Beyond the Beachhead (Joseph Balkoski)

Fighting with the Screaming Eagles (Robert Bowen)

Death Traps (Belton Cooper)

All The Way To Berlin (James Megellas)

Bootprints (Herbert Wineberger)

The View From The Turret (William Folkstad)

Etched In Purple (Frank Irgang)

The Fighting First (Flint Whitlock)

No Better Place To Die (Robert Murphy)

D-Day With The Screaming Eagles (George Koskimaki)

If You Survive (George Wilson)

Crack! And Thump: With A Combat Infantry Officer in WWII (Barry Basden)

Busting the Bocage (Capt. Michael Doubler)

D-Day: The Battle For Normandy (Anthony Beevor)

Lucky Infantryman (Ed Jackel)

Men of Steel: Canadian Paratroopers in Normandy (Bernard Horn)

I have the official histories of the 1st, 4th, 28th and 30th US Infantry Divisions that discuss bocage fighting as well.

And you are right, I never asked any of the vets those specific questions. They generally described the fighting as going around or through openings (farmer made, or by tanks), but no one ever said they were all, 100% impassable/inpeneratable. But then neither did I.

Some of the accounts do mention (or at least imply) that troops went through bocage to hastily get out of the line of fire, or when there were no Germans on the other side of the field. In one of those books, I think it was Koskimaki's, a paratrooper mentions "sailing" over a hedgerow to avoid fire and landing on top of some sheep! But I haven't come across any reference to routine infantry assault tactics that involved soldiers going through the tangle on top of bocage.

Any way, BFC has given us gaps and hedges, which for me gets the game around the problem pretty well. I had assumed from the get-go that the hedges were passable "hedgerows", because frankly, I didn't think that there were a lot of decorative garden-type hedges in France then. But since they aren't raised like the bocage tiles, I don't know. (And, I was not suggesting that you didn't know bocage was not the same as my neighbor's hedge. But if you recall one of the very first threads on this issue, there was one or two persons who were arguing that it was. I think BFC weighed in on that one.

Cheers!

P.S. As it has turned out, it was a good discussion, but I jumped the gun thinking that it was going to turn into another "they got it wrong again" battle. Which, even if it did, I could have just ignored it, advice I've thrown out there before myself. Ironically, I had just gotten off the phone with an unreasonable attorney who would not negotiate a simple contract issue. Note to self: don't reply to forum issues at work.

[LemuelG]

“A machine gun opened fire across the field. So, the three of us started running toward the hedgerow. We dove into the hedgerow, and I got hung up with my feet dangling in the air. I had a new rubberized gas mask on my left hip and leg, and a .45 pistol on my right hip, as well as a walkie-talkie radio on which I was supposed to contact [Lieutenant] Ray Grossman once we hit the ground. I finally got down into the ditch, and two things I discarded—the gas mask and the radio, because I couldn’t get it to work.

“In the meantime, my squad leader, Bob [“the Beast”] Niland, was going across the road to set up a defense on the other side of the road. He was just stepping over a hedgerow and they nailed him. It was a machine gun … an MG-42 ...

“He said, ‘Right up the hedgerow to the east.’ I leaped from the pit to the border and over the hedge, and ran to the medic. When I arrived, he was holding one of us [troopers] in his lap, with blood pumping from his back. I immediately sat down and recovered normality. When he looked up at me, he turned pale, and I was frightened again. After a sulfa powder application, he bandaged my neck.

Since we couldn’t go around the hedgerows, we had to rip our way through. I took the lead, and the two 508th men were right on my tail. I tore the hedgerow branches apart as thorns and heavy brush ripped my wrists. My hands were bleeding in no time at all.”9

“Moving out, the going was slow, much like running an obstacle course with all those damn hedgerows. After all the training and preparations we had made back in England, not one word had been mentioned about them.

Nordyke, Phil. Four Stars of Valor: The Combat History of the 505th Parachute Infantry Regiment in World War II. Zenith Press. Kindle Edition.

Humans find ways. Whether or not hurdling/climbing/pushing-through is sensible when it is being observed by the enemy is irrelevant to it's possibility.

I guess we've all observed circumstances in which guys will take lengthy detours through multiple kill-sacks to move around an unbroken hedgerow - ideally I think there might be some kind kind of 'climb' order, a bit like 'blast', but with climbing-over instead of blowing-up; it would be lengthy and troops would be vulnerable in the process (and as with many orders, abandoned if fire is sufficiently heavy), it is fatiguing and not applicable to vehicles.

I would also like to see my guys climbing up trees when asked.

[hoolaman]

None of those sound like supporting evidence for something that was a routine or even very sensible idea.

Hung up in the air, nailed by a MG, bleeding hands, etc.

[sburke]

We dove into the hedgerow, and I got hung up with my feet dangling in the air.

He was just stepping over a hedgerow and they nailed him.

I leaped from the pit to the border and over the hedge, and ran to the medic.

Since we couldn’t go around the hedgerows, we had to rip our way through.

The only issue with this is the sheer inconsistency. Are they so high you have to rip your way through, or can you dive over them or perhaps simply just step over them? Question I would have is he actually describing hedgerows here or has it come down to every dang bush being called a hedgerow at a certain point?

[Franko]

Some of you guys should really SEE bocage in person. It's a bitch. I thought the distinguishing characteristic of low vs. High I. The game was simply a line of sight thing: but it is all basically the same nightmare.

[James Crowley]

None of those sound like supporting evidence for something that was a routine or even very sensible idea.

Hung up in the air, nailed by a MG, bleeding hands, etc.

Lots and lots of things that happened in Normandy, or any battleground for that matter, were neither sensible, routine or prescribed doctrine. but they happened nontheless.

From a programming perspective you obviously cannot allow for every possibilty but forcing a blanket ban on something that could be done, albeit slowly and potentially dangerously, is not IMO, the right approach.

It robs the player of a decision making process, whereby he may discover that carrying out such an action may have dire consequences. Rather like driving a tank into an enemy urban area or crossing an infantry squad over an open field covered by an enemy MG.

Simply saying 'no, we don't and can't go over them' is a bit of a cop out.

[Franko]

BF made a DESIGN decision to say that unpassable vegetation with a lower LOS is called "low bocage". If you have a photo showing a vehicle passing vegetation that LOOKs like low bocage, then it would not BE "low bocage" for game purposes. Use "hedge" or bushes or both or something else in your designs. Jeez.