Hiding/Un-hiding

[L. M. Murillo]

I've found it impossible to "un-hide" a unit once I issue it the "Hide" command. I've also seen that a hiding unit's LOS is almost totally lost, even though the "soldiers" in the unit are alternating hiding/spotting.

I've tried moving the unit - still hiding. I've tried firing the unit - still hiding. How in the heck do you get a unit to stop hiding?

[Sergei]

Is the Hide button showing as highlighted even after you have pressed it? Are you playing Wego or RT?

[HardRock]

click hide again to unhide.

[Cymru]

It would be nice if the button visually changed between “Hide” and “Unhide”

[Vanir Ausf B]

It does change, but what would be much nicer is if there was some indication on the UI that didn't require you to navigate to that orders pane to check.

[Pvt. Ryan]

It does change, but what would be much nicer is if there was some indication on the UI that didn't require you to navigate to that orders pane to check.

If the men are hiding, their status will say hiding. Otherwise it will say spotting or whatever else they are doing. The men also lie down when they are hiding.

[L. M. Murillo]

I appreciate everyone's replies, but this was the original problem. Placed a unit behind a low stone wall, and had clear LOS for mucho meters. Issued a Hide order. LOS didn't extend beyond their noses. Clicked Hide again...no change. Tried to fire the unit at an area target, thinking they would "unhide." No change. Moved the unit, no change. Clicked Hide again, hoping it would "toggle." No change, and still about a 1 meter LOS. All this while the five-member gun screw showed Hiding, spotting, spotting, hiding, spotting. Still lost all that good LOS. The color of the Hide button never changed, and the gun basically became useless.

Could really use a "stop hiding" button in this game, but then again, the entire "terrain" chapter was omitted. Saw threads referencing "fords." Evidently, tanks can no longer cross at fords. Seems rather odd to me. I also miss the feature that told you what type of terrain the unit occupied, and "scattered trees" seem to have disappeared from the game. Not to mention the LOS tool that told you if you were attempting to move up a "slope" or other impassable terrain with a vehicle.

For all the great graphics and the "smart" soldiers that seek defilade terrain while moving, TOO MUCh has been omitted from the cmx1 system, let alone the rule book.

[Magpie_Oz]

I find the Hide/unhide thing a bit of a pain too, the Deploy/Pack Up too. There doesn't seem to be a definitive way to see what the status is.

The terrain thing is a bummer but thing is it is a different world now I believe. Whether you are in scattered trees or not now is irrelevant, it is whether you are behind a particular tree or not that is important.

Having lots of trees in front of you increases the likelihood of the bullet hitting the tree but to all intents and purposes your men are standing in open ground.

[mjkerner]

Tanks can cross at shallow fords, though.

[costard]

Sounds like an intermittent bug. I've had it happen too: the Hide button doesn't change when clicked. I had to move the unit to get the functionality back. WEGO, no game save.

[Michael Emrys]

..."scattered trees" seem to have disappeared from the game.

As a specific terrain type, yes. But I notice that on a lot of the maps the trees are thinly scattered to the point that I can easily drive vehicles through them as long as I choose my movement path carefully. Using the slow command helps too.

Michael

[Chris Ferrous]

Actually, the trees seem to be represented abstractly, so a tank can visually drive straight through a tree (or a telegraph pole) without manoeuvering around it.

Hence you can park a tank with a tree sticking out of its turret.

Strangely, tank shells seem to hit specific trees? :confused:

[Statisoris]

Actually, the trees seem to be represented abstractly, so a tank can visually drive straight through a tree (or a telegraph pole) without manoeuvering around it.

Hence you can park a tank with a tree sticking out of its turret.

Strangely, tank shells seem to hit specific trees? :confused:

Yeah, I've found this especially weird since most everything physical is suppose to be 1:1 in game. Lol, Trees seem programmed to follow the rules of Quantum Mechanics instead of General Relativity. They are there, but not really...

[akd]

Pathing around individual trees is a nightmare for the AI. It will try to go around areas with dense tree placement, but the best way to make a forest impassable to vehicles and avoid excessive tree clipping is to place it on top "heavy forest" tile.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I remember someone saying that originally in CMSF vehicles could not clip through trees but the TacAI couldn't handle the pathfinding, so now vehicles are allowed to clip through trees to some extent.

[YankeeDog]

Yep; AFAIK, trees are "abstract" with regards to vehicle pathing *only*. Other aspects of trees are WYSIWYG.

It's also important to remember that "ground type" is completely separate from the actual location of of large trees. You can have dense trees on open ground (which would represent something like a tended orchard), or you can have "heavy woods" ground type, with few large trees, which would represent something like new growth forest; an area that was once a field that has been recently reclaimed by nature, with lots of low vegetation.

In general, in CMx2, I find it much better to use intuition and common sense than worrying too much about exactly where trees are, or what ground type specifically my soldiers are in. It's also important to keep in mind that especially with large cover like trees, in some cases it can be as good or better if the trees are somewhere along the line of incoming fire, rather than having your units right in amongst them. This way, if the trees intercept incoming HE, your units don't have do deal with the nasty consequences of a treeburst.

But defilade is almost always the best type of cover, and this is something that CMx2 models much better than CMx1. So, given the choice between a patch of heavy woods without defilade and a nice little piece of low ground in an open area, I'll almost always take the latter.

[Steiner14]

That the HIDE-status is not displayed in the movement paths and in the unit-window is one of those things, that make me shake my head, that this comes from a developer with decade long design expierience.

And I also don't understand, if the game engine is known to be heavy for CPUs, why there even was precious CPU- and GFX-power wasted on modeling single trees instead of abstracting such unnecessary things as much as possible.

Inconsistent behaviour because of trying to model something 1:1, then noticing the CPU is not sufficient enough to handle it anyway and finally use workarounds seem to be not a very clever design decision.

I believe this has been sucking up LOTS of precious programming time (if i imagine how much additional labour only the trees must cost programming wise, to make the unit's-AI "see" single trees and position accordingly, every programmer has my sympathy).

Not even the best programmers in the world can compensate for such bad design decisions.

[slysniper]

Sounds like an intermittent bug. I've had it happen too: the Hide button doesn't change when clicked. I had to move the unit to get the functionality back. WEGO, no game save.

I HAVE HAD THE SAME THING, BUTTON DOES NOT APPEAR TO CHANGE, I HAVE LEARNED TO JUST CLICK ONCE, MAYBE IT DOES NOT APPEAR CHANGED, BUT THE COMMAND IS ACTIVATED.

Actually, I think I have seen it change if I go issue orders to another unit, then come back, the button then shows what I selected.

[Chris Ferrous]

To be honest I have seen something like this, i.e. unable to 'unhide', but I think it's because it happens there and then; if you press hide your unit hides, but if you change your mind it doesn't happen until the playback is activated.

Then if you 'get in a loop', you press hide again thinking you're cancelling it, but really you are reactivating it all over again, and so the situation continues.

In my early days (is it only 5-6 weeks ago?) I had similar problems with the dismount command.

[costard]

Thanks Chris - that'd explain it.

[womble]

That the HIDE-status is not displayed in the movement paths and in the unit-window is one of those things, that make me shake my head, that this comes from a developer with decade long design expierience.

Can't argue with that, myself.

And I also don't understand, if the game engine is known to be heavy for CPUs, why there even was precious CPU- and GFX-power wasted on modeling single trees instead of abstracting such unnecessary things as much as possible.

Who says it's unnecessary? Modelling LOS/LOF for single trees is one (among many) of the reasons the engine is so demanding on the kit. I consider it to be quite an important one, if you're trying to model things one-for-one. If you wanted to make the engine less demanding, you could also decide that 1:1 modelling of soldiers could be abstracted, or projectile ballistics. But then you would be moving away from the intent of CM.

Inconsistent behaviour because of trying to model something 1:1, then noticing the CPU is not sufficient enough to handle it anyway and finally use workarounds seem to be not a very clever design decision.

Just like having abstracted micro-terrain because the game wouldn't be able to manage a 20cm 3D terrain grid? It's a graphical abstraction for vehicles only. There are, in my opinion a hundred other things that would be better done first, most of them to do with the interface, but obviously, we differ. We probably also differ from BFC in our opinion on priorities, but since it would be impossible to get a player concensus on which features to develop first, it's BFC's list that actually matters.

[Steiner14]

Who says it's unnecessary? Modelling LOS/LOF for single trees is one (among many) of the reasons the engine is so demanding on the kit. I consider it to be quite an important one, if you're trying to model things one-for-one. If you wanted to make the engine less demanding, you could also decide that 1:1 modelling of soldiers could be abstracted, or projectile ballistics. But then you would be moving away from the intent of CM.

Ok, let me be more precise:

Unnecessary for a better gaming experience and better simulation results.

And the rising CPU useage with much trees and dense woods.

And we don't even know, how much development time this has been sucking up and will suck up in the future (say hello to the Ardennes or Germany with the dense woods) and therefore other things are missing because of that.

It's a graphical abstraction for vehicles only.

Only?

There are, in my opinion a hundred other things that would be better done first, most of them to do with the interface

Exactly my thoughts.

Didn't you write single trees were so important, otherwise CM would lose focus?

We probably also differ from BFC in our opinion on priorities, but since it would be impossible to get a player concensus on which features to develop first, it's BFC's list that actually matters.

Who ever asked for single trees being modeled?

[womble]

Ok, let me be more precise:

Unnecessary for a better gaming experience and better simulation results.

And the rising CPU useage with much trees and dense woods.

And we don't even know, how much development time this has been sucking up and will suck up in the future (say hello to the Ardennes or Germany with the dense woods) and therefore other things are missing because of that.

No. We don't know anything about how much dev time this has been sucking up, so this is just so much electronic wind.

Only?

Can't remember seeing any of my pTruppen walking or crawling through the trunk of a tree. They tend to hang around behind them. And projectiles certainly register trees' presence.

Exactly my thoughts.

Didn't you write single trees were so important, otherwise CM would lose focus?

Single trees are already done. Apart from the single case of vehicle pathing. Sorting out the vehicle pathing is inconsequential in my opinion, and they'd be better getting the IF right before they spent any time on having the AI thread its vehicles' way through trees (incidentally vastly increasing the difficulty of managing them for the human player). You seem to think differently to me. Which of us should BFC choose to please? The answer of course is "Neither; they should stick to their vision."

Who ever asked for single trees being modeled?

You would be if they hadn't been. Guaranteed.

[Steiner14]

You would be if they hadn't been. Guaranteed.

You logic is outstanding.

[Blackcat]

"That the HIDE-status is not displayed in the movement paths and in the unit-window is one of those things"

Strange I never have a problem in leanring if one of my units is hiding. All I have to do is select it and there in the bottom left of screen is a little panel that tells me what each member is doing. If I am in doubt I can ove on extra click and look at the Hide button, if it is highlighted then they are or if it aint't they ain't going to be in the next turn, vene if they are now.. I really don't know what you guys are on about with this issue.