Making CM:BN more like CMx1-mods?

[Battlefront.com]

No command lines? Seriously? WTF?

I was worried about this in the demo. Didn't see the command lines, but figured I was just missing something because I didn't have the manual.

If you skip out on the game because of such extremely minor issues, then you will definitely be missing something

How could they possibly think of leaving this key feature out?

Because it isn't necessary. There are other UI methods for obtaining the same information in a more useable way. It would be a good idea to learn to use the UI that is in the game before rejecting it.

This is one reason why I'm holding off on buying the game until all of these kinks are worked out . . . or not.

"Not" in some cases. The game engine underneath Normandy has been in the marketplace for 4 years already and it's done just fine without Command Lines.

No targeting lines either? Really? Eh, don't like the sound of that.

Then you don't like the sound of units being able to engage multiple targets concurrently? This was not possible in CMx1, so it was possible to show what any one unit was firing at because it only had one target. With the more detailed modeling there would be lines all over the place. So many it would be vastly more confusing than helpful. I can't even remember the last time someone requested we have a feature to show targeting lines. Years, at least.

IMO, the gameplay/controlability of CMAK was pretty damn close to perfect.

I don't. People got used to it and developed habits around it. The same is true for CMx2. Charles was just saying to me today that a couple of months ago he had to boot up CMAK for some reason. It had been years since he played it and found he couldn't play it any more. Not from an enjoyment standpoint, but literally could not play it because the UI and information presentation was simply too frustrating.

I like what I'm hearing about the graphics . . . I don't like what I'm hearing about the controls. The conversation in this thread is confirming a lot of the things that worried me about the demo.

You have the Demo? Why then should you let a bunch of typed text on a Forum influence you? Play the Demo and decide for yourself if you like it or not. And not just play it once or twice. While doing that try and put aside your hardwired CMx1 expectations and work with what CM:BN is and not what CMAK is.

It would be a shame if the gameplay has been sacrificed for nice graphics.

It hasn't. Both CMx1 and CMx2's graphics are just windows for the simulation underneath. That hasn't changed with CM:BN. The fact that the window is a lot more attractive to look at is directly related to the fact that the simulation it's showing you is far more than what CMx1 was able to do.

(I also don't like the camera controls in the demo, when compared to those in CMAK, but that's for another thread.)

Again, play CM:BN as it is intended to be played instead of the way some other game plays, CMAK or any other. Put another way, if you got behind the wheel of a Ferrari would you drive it like a 1978 Buick LeSabre because that's what defined your driving experience up until that point? ("I don't like all this leather. And WTF is up with the speedometer going up to 200mph? Hate the doors too" )

Steve

[Peregrine]

I wish the information bar was more spread out.

I don't know what resolution the information bar at the bottom maxes out at across the whole screen but for me it is annoying to see to chunks of blank nothing at the bottom right and left of my montior.

Particulary when the vehicle information is 3 tabs which need to be cycled through with mouse clicks (or infantry two tabs) and the arty pane is well just an allround pain.

Getting hung up on command lines is laughable. Especially if you play WEGO.

Targetting lines would fill the screen with useless information for infantry units in any sort of crowded environment.

[LJFHutch]

While doing that try and put aside your hardwired CMx1 expectations and work with what CM:BN is and not what CMAK is.

I had to do that coming from SF too, though probably a lot less. Before that I had what was probably a more comparable transition, from Men of War to Shock Force, boy was that a learning experience!

It could just be that I'm used to it but I really do find CMx2 to have the best UI and control systems around, with the alternate keymap of course. Playing other RTS's now is like trying to drive a car with one hand behind your back - not that I do

[Fizou]

When I went from CMx1 to CMSF, the first part of the CMx2 games, it naturally took some time to adapt to the new controls. Both UI and camera movement. It helps being open minded, sure it takes some times to get used to the new when you have hundreds of hours worth of CMx1 game play coming in to the new system.

After some time I got used to the new system and find it better than the old. Sure some things still can be improved but just because something was in CMx1 doesn’t make it superior to CMx2. It would also be a good idea for CMx1 players that skipped CMSF to go through the manual, a lot of answers will be found there.

[Wodin]

Still don't get why people want it to be like CMx1.....why not just play CMx1??

You already have the perfect game if that what you want...

[Battlefront.com]

When I went from CMx1 to CMSF, the first part of the CMx2 games, it naturally took some time to adapt to the new controls. Both UI and camera movement.

I think many CMx1 fans have forgotten that when CMx1 was the only game in town there were lots and lots of complaints about the UI. In particular the camera controls. But people got used to it. Now they have to get used to something different. And why is it different? Because the game itself is different.

It helps being open minded, sure it takes some times to get used to the new when you have hundreds of hours worth of CMx1 game play coming in to the new system.

This is the key to the whole thing, right here. It is unrealistic to expect to retrain your brain so quickly when we're talking about 10+ years of doing similar actions a different way. And some people are naturally more adaptable than others.

After some time I got used to the new system and find it better than the old.

One thing CMx1 guys should remember... we didn't just change things to piss them off. We changed stuff to work better with CMx2. As you say, this doesn't make it better than CMx1, it just makes it better for CMx2.

What we're going to do is the same thing we did with Shock Force... we'll give new players some time to adapt and we'll see what complaints are still around AND (just as importantly) what might be the best way to satisfy them in the CMx2 context. Knee jerk feature changes/additions aren't something we're interested in as it isn't a good thing for anybody.

That said, CMx1 guys coming to CM:BN fresh need to understand that other CMx1 players have already beaten the core game engine to death over the last 4 years. Changes/tweaks have already been made to a lot of things and eventually a lot of issues just worked themselves out.

Steve

[GSX]

I personally couldn't agree more. CMx2 is not the same game. It's a new game that has some features that a previous game had. I thnk if anyone sticks with learning it they won't be disappointed.

Me, after playing the engine for four years I can't bear to play the old game. The improved camera controls alone are worth sticking with it for.

Like someone above said. If you want CM-1, then go play it, not everything is brilliant in CM-2 but it's become a good game over the last few years and one that definitely deserves a good look.

[TheBlackHand]

Until this new wave of CMx1 guys came in I haven't seen a request for Command Lines for years.

Well, excuse me. Fine, if there is an alternate, faster/easier way to keep my platoons/companies sorted and in command & control, then fine. I'm sure it will be in the manual. I'm sure you guys haven't tossed out the concept, just worked it differently. I played about 3/4 of one battle in the demo. Liked the graphics, didn't really like the rest of it because it didn't feel like the games that I was used to . . . or was hoping for, initially. For one thing, I couldn't keep track of who was in command of who after the battle got going. I haven't messed with the demo any more because I WILL buy the full game eventually. At that time I'll read the manual and give it a real go.

Normally, I'm not a very conservative person . . . but when it comes to something that I've grown to know and love as much as the CMBB/CMAK games . . . I need a lot more than flashy graphics. I don't believe in change for the sake of change. If something works, don't fix it. I am of the opinion that the older games worked great. I want this new one to work just as well . . . and better, if that's possible.

The answer on target lines makes complete sense. With this explanation I can see how it is an improvement over the old game.

I'm still skeptical about a few other things, lack of command lines included . . . but we'll see.

I'm 99.9% certain that I'll buy the game. I just always like to wait a few weeks to see what the community has to say, while reading between the lines, and waiting for the first patch and a few mods. That's just how I am with all of the games that I've played for years/decades (mainly IL2 & Civilization).

The only thing that would make me quit on a game that I've followed for years is if it were dumbed down, they ceased printing a full manual (Silent Hunter), or it was completely re-vamped as to be unrecognizable. (Civ V, from what I hear).

I never played CM:SF and I have no real desire to, simply because I'm a WW2 guy when it comes to this sort of thing. Personal preference.

[Peregrine]

Well, excuse me. Fine, if there is an alternate, faster/easier way to keep my platoons/companies sorted and in command & control, then fine. I'm sure it will be in the manual. I'm sure you guys haven't tossed out the concept, just worked it differently. I played about 3/4 of one battle in the demo. Liked the graphics, didn't really like the rest of it because it didn't feel like the games that I was used to . . . or was hoping for, initially. For one thing, I couldn't keep track of who was in command of who after the battle got going. I haven't messed with the demo any more because I WILL buy the full game eventually. At that time I'll read the manual and give it a real go.

Normally, I'm not a very conservative person . . . but when it comes to something that I've grown to know and love as much as the CMBB/CMAK games . . . I need a lot more than flashy graphics. I don't believe in change for the sake of change. If something works, don't fix it. I am of the opinion that the older games worked great. I want this new one to work just as well . . . and better, if that's possible.

The answer on target lines makes complete sense. With this explanation I can see how it is an improvement over the old game.

I'm still skeptical about a few other things, lack of command lines included . . . but we'll see.

I'm 99.9% certain that I'll buy the game. I just always like to wait a few weeks to see what the community has to say, while reading between the lines, and waiting for the first patch and a few mods. That's just how I am with all of the games that I've played for years/decades (mainly IL2 & Civilization).

The only thing that would make me quit on a game that I've followed for years is if it were dumbed down, they ceased printing a full manual (Silent Hunter), or it was completely re-vamped as to be unrecognizable. (Civ V, from what I hear).

I never played CM:SF and I have no real desire to, simply because I'm a WW2 guy when it comes to this sort of thing. Personal preference.

One thing to definitely keep in mind is that Cmx2 is more detailed which in turn makes it more complicated. I routinely played Infantry Battalion sized MEs with tank support and that sized game is much more daunting now under CMx1. I can't put my finger on exactly why it is more a case of lots of little things adding up.

A similarly sized CMx1 battle takes more time/effort/brainpower under CMx2. C2 is a more detailed chain and stretches outside a single platoon but it is only one aspect. You have to learn a new game.

[LJFHutch]

Well, excuse me. Fine, if there is an alternate, faster/easier way to keep my platoons/companies sorted and in command & control, then fine.

If you double click on a unit it will select it and everything below it in the chain of command. If you select a unit you can see the chain of command in the bottom left, click on the levels takes you to that leader, so if you need 1st company click on someone IN first company, then click the company CO, after that double click the unit and it'll select (and highlight) all 1st company soldiers). It's a bit slow but it certainly gets the job done.

It could use some streamlining I think though.

The only thing that would make me quit on a game that I've followed for years is if it were dumbed down, they ceased printing a full manual (Silent Hunter), or it was completely re-vamped as to be unrecognizable. (Civ V, from what I hear).

Didn't Civ 5 have ALL of those issues?

[7thGalaxy]

Didn't Civ 5 have ALL of those issues?

Off topic I know, but I think that Civ V did a really good job of moving the civ series forwards

[Blackcat]

"The only thing that would make me quit on a game that I've followed for years is if it were dumbed down, they ceased printing a full manual (Silent Hunter), or it was completely re-vamped as to be unrecognizable. (Civ V, from what I hear)."

Well, I don't think anyone could seriously accuse BF of dumbing down CMx1. Some people think it has become too complex, but the truth is that it is a whole new game.

Manuals cost money to print. You can pay for it up front to the game company or pay to print it yourself. The problem wth the former is that not so many people feel the need to have one these days and so the company has to take on costs (prnting, post and admin) to no significant benefit for themselves or most of their customers. If they provided a printed manual on demand on a cost basis printing your won would become the cheapest option.

Is CMx2 unrecognisable from its illustrious ancestor. Not in my view, but others may take a different opinion. For sure it is not a development of the original, it is a new game on a new engine and so things are done differently. Those who, for good and sufficient reasons, skipped CMSF will learn to play the new game or they won't, just like the rest of us. Of those that take the time and trouble to learn some, probably the great majority if past experience is to go by, will grow to like it and will look back on CMx1 as CMBO players did to ASL (OK for its day but really now out-classed).

From my own experience the process of learning CMx2 is greatly aided by accepting it is a new game and approaching it as such. My own epiphany took place when I stopped trying to do things the same way, and finding that I couldn't, and started with the mindset of I want to do X now how do I do that with this new game? (Quite often I then found myself comng up with the answer, "So that's how, nice. Which means I can probably do ....").

[Magpie_Oz]

I beg to differ. I think in RL it quickly becomes apparent when a unit is out of contact. Countless war movies draw their dramatic moments from the line "Sir, we have lost contact with (insert unit name here)". And it's not that the information is not being offered ingame, it is just not being offered efficiently.

And I beg to double differ (?). Based on real life experience an HQ can be out of communications with their subunits very easily and knowing that or not is very hard to determine.

"Sir we've lost contact with ...... " is all good and dramatic but unless you have the current update of the script you have no idea why you have no contact with them. All dead? Hiding and dare not answer? About to spring an ambush? radio batteries dead? radio op asleep? busy? trying to answer but the bloody HQ op won't shut up! ?

What I am getting at is that the game offers a large amount of information to the player that a real life commander would not have. My enjoyment comes from recreating the pressures and uncertainties of combat and to my mind the CM:SF/CM:BN set up is better, rather than being able to know instantly who is in command and who is not.

[TheBlackHand]

I routinely played Infantry Battalion sized MEs with tank support and that sized game is much more daunting now under CMx1.

Me too. I really enjoyed it, although it was, at times, a huuuge undertaking. It was like a giant chess game (I only played PBEM for the last five years or so). I get the impression that CM:BN is more of a company sized game. I recall while playing the demo that I thought anything larger would be a LOT of micromanagement and click-work.

The command lines in the large battles that I played were essential to keeping my platoons/companies together during setup . . . as well as during the actual gameplay. You could follow your units across the map very easily, while making sure that they were fighting effectively . . . without having to utilize the rather cumbersome process that LJFHutch has described (and which I will be sure to remember when I play the full game). If a unit went out of contact, which was inevitable at times, you could work you way back to bringing them within range of your unit leader. You WORRIED about those guys, and the rest of your guys should that unit be lost. I suppose you can and should do this in CM:BN . . . but it sure sounds like a lot more work.

This is "progress"? Uh, huh. I'll be the judge of that.

Civ V? Yeah, I will buy that one when it hits $20 on Amazon. Unless it doesn't have a full manual. If that's the case, ef those guys. I don't plan on paying FULL PRICE for any game . . . only to be told I have to pay MORE MONEY to print a g@dd@mn manual on my own $h*tty printer paper with hella expensive ink and then punch holes in the paper and put it in a three ring binder. (Been there, done that, never gonna do it again.)

I had this happen with a $500 Canon camera once. I paid a lot of money only to find out . . . NO EFFING MANUAL. I returned the camera and bought a NIKON . . . with a manual.

I would actually be willing to pay less for a game with no manual, if the game company gave me the option to buy a full, printed manual. Call me "old fashioned" but I actually enjoy reading a Bible-sized manual to a game like Combat Mission. The manual was part of the fun. It was part of what got me energized to actually play the game. This new-fangled idea that we have to print our own manuals in the name of "progress" just pi$$es me off to no end. They replace the excitement of getting a new game with . . . an aggravating and expensive trip to Kinkos.

I'd pay $40 for a game with no manual. I might pay $60 for a game with a professional, book-like manual.

If I pay $50 or $60 for a game only to find NO manual . . . I'm gonna return that game and never buy another.

Now, GET OFF MY LAWN!! Harumph.

(Off topic, but why the hell is this forum constantly losing my password? Every time I post I have to request a new one. What a PITA.)

[Peregrine]

I am 38 and been playing games forever.

In Australia (our stuff can be a little more expensive) new PC games from the mid 90s onwards have been in the $70 to $100 mark. In sixteen years there has not been much of a price shift and we had a 10% GST introduced as well. Computer games aren't made in new more efficient factories (nearly 100% man hours) yet I got CMBN (preordered) for $76 (whatever it cost plus shipping minus a little due to the exchange rate between $AU and the American Peso).

This included a Steelbook, printed manual, CD, immediate dowload that took 1 hour 20 minutes (needed to use a download manager otherwise (7 hours). I see nothing but progress.

The lack of hardcopy manuals is a product of many things. Someone may be able to correct me as I am a bit grey about this but didn't publisher/retailers or someone agree or push to standardise retail game sales into a single DVD case? This was the death nell for any serious game to have a proper manual. It don't fit.

* Also not the hungup on a printed manual. I work in IT and while I much prefer to read hardcopies in that situation I prefer PDF manuals because I trust a PDF control-F to be faster and more efficient than any TOC or index that I have seen.

[Peregrine]

Didn't Civ 5 have ALL of those issues?

PLUS massive memory leaks that were patched roughly 3 months after it's initial release. Machines that could play shooters on high graphics settings actually ground to a halt and crashed.

People were querying frame per second for CMBN (wtf are FPS argument in a wargame) would have been none to happy with an unpatched CIV5.

I don't actually mind CIV5. In my opinion there was something wrong with the previous one or maybe two and this one got it right. The combat is a little more detailed which actually did make it worse in some ways cause it's a harder job for the AI. I wish you could build single army units that contained lots of stuff which would give the AI a better chance but then it would look too much like a strategic wargame which isn't their market.

[Blackcat]

"The lack of hardcopy manuals is a product of many things. Someone may be able to correct me as I am a bit grey about this but didn't publisher/retailers or someone agree or push to standardise retail game sales into a single DVD case? This was the death nell for any serious game to have a proper manual. It don't fit."

They did but that was before Amazon and the like became ubiqitous, in the days when the vast majority of people bought games from shops. So perhaps the excuse doesn't really hold now. The plain fact is manuals are expensive for the company to produce and distribute. Furthermore a very large proportion of games players have got used to the idea of not having a printed version (I looked at the CMSF manual only to check up on the calibre of unfamiliar weapons to make sure I acquired the correct stock from vehicles).

Didn't BF say a few weeks back that they were not going to have any furher manuals printed after the current stock has run out?

Strategy guides used to sell well, I found my copy of the CMBO one the other day, but who wants to pay out hard cash for information that can be found for free on the internet.

Each to their own, but if someone is going to refuse to buy any game that doesn't have a nice manual then I suspect their choice of gaming is going to be very limited in the future.

[Ranger33]

Was going to rant a little about you old fogies and your stuck in the past ways but I'll hold my tongue and just encourage you to keep playing. A few weeks/months from now you might think "I'll boot up CMBB/CMAK" and discover that it is now unplayable and archaic in every way. That's what happened to me after a couple months of CMSF (after the patches).

Edit: I held out on Civ 5 until a couple weeks ago but I'm glad I finally caved and bought it. It does lack a bit of complexity from the old games, but overall I find it far more enjoyable than the previous versions. When I want complex I play Victoria 2 or EU3, when I want colorful fun I play Civ 5/TW series. When I want tactical I play CMx2

[Sergei]

Please help, I need to make the game look less like this (ugh)

and more like this. What mods can I use?

[Blackcat]

"I suppose you can and should do this in CM:BN . . . but it sure sounds like a lot more work"

Play the game some, get used to engine and then make a judgement. Since playing CMx2 I have never found the absence of command lines a drawback. Mind you I never felt the need to use them once battle commenced in CMx1 as I was always careful to keep my units reasonably close together so as to fight as a platoon and company (two up, one back formations etc.).

The only time I thought command lines were really useful was in the setup phase in big quick battles (where one had dozens of units strung out in a single line) but CMx2 provides highlighted icons which will do the same job just as easily.

[Peregrine]

Younger generation needs to harden up. In the old days we had hexagonal tyres. People don't realise how good they have got it with circles for wheels.

[MikeyD]

I'm reminded of the old Jimmy Stewart movie 'Vertigo'. Stewart starts dating Kim Novak but insists on dressing her up to look just like a previous dead girfriend. More than just a little neurotic. You want to yell at the screen "Hey dude, you're dating KIM NOVAK!"

[lookeylou]

Sergei- too funny. i was thinking the same thing. I skipped the 1st because of its looks. It compounded by the fact that other games at the time looked so good in comparison. I know i missed some good game play, but i was spoiled by visuals at the time.

Peregrine-It's a difference between not knowing better and knowing better.

[Battlefront.com]

Didn't BF say a few weeks back that they were not going to have any furher manuals printed after the current stock has run out?

Yes. The amount of people willing to pay for a manual and the shipping has dropped off dramatically over the past few years now that the download only option is available. This has left us with a choice of either overbuying, and getting a good discount per manual, or printing "on demand" at VERY expensive per-unit prices.

The only time it makes sense for us to print manuals is up front when the sales volume is highest. We will continue to do that for as far as we can see.

Just so you know, right now 80% of all CM:BN orders are download only despite us having printed manual versions for sale. This % will likely increase in the coming months.

Each to their own, but if someone is going to refuse to buy any game that doesn't have a nice manual then I suspect their choice of gaming is going to be very limited in the future.

Yup, very limited indeed.

A few weeks/months from now you might think "I'll boot up CMBB/CMAK" and discover that it is now unplayable and archaic in every way. That's what happened to me after a couple months of CMSF (after the patches).

This has been the experience of many CMx1 players after they got used to CM:SF. GSX on the previous page said the same, and it's not hard to find others who have said so too. CMx2's UI is better for CMx2 than CMx1's UI could ever be. This doesn't mean CMx2's UI couldn't be made better, because anything can be made better. And as it so happens, we're going to do a lot of UI changes/improvements for the next major release now that we have basic WW2 and Temperate environments pretty much taken care of.

Steve

[akd]

If the next CM game published does not download with a Kindle manual, I will refuse to buy!!!