Is Gameplay Better Than CMBB, How?

[MikeyD]

Complaining about lack of random generated maps is like complaining about not being able to buy a Snickers bar at a Godiva chocolate outlet. For one thing, CMx2 an entirely different product from CMx1. Nothing was 'taken away' because it was never there to begin with. For another, you're asking for the product to be made inferior to what's being offered. 200+ hand-crafted high quality QB maps won't satisfy you, you want to see absurdly placed walls and roads leading to nowhere before you feel at home in the game.

[akd]

In CMSF if you don't like something about a map, you can change it BY using the editor. my personal preference is longer games so i always change the time to the max.

As Steve mentioned, in CMBN you can now select the map from the QB interface if you want. You can also change the time limit in the QB interface.

[dkchapuis]

Maybe I just want a snickers at home instead of having to go find a godiva store ...

For one thing, CMx2 an entirely different product from CMx1. Nothing was 'taken away' because it was never there to begin with.

This really isnt that complicated. When comparing CMx1 game features to CMx2, CMx1 has a good feature (whether you want to admit it or not) that is not included in CMx2, i.e. auto-generated maps. I know they will never be in CMx2. Im not even asking for them to be added. But dont try to act like NOT having auto-generated maps is an improvement ... or whatever point you are trying to make.

For another, you're asking for the product to be made inferior to what's being offered. 200+ hand-crafted high quality QB maps won't satisfy you, you want to see absurdly placed walls and roads leading to nowhere before you feel at home in the game.

See this is where it gets ridiculous.

1. So CMx1 would be a better game without auto-generated maps? Absolutely not. Then why do you say that CMx2 is better without that feature. Makes absolutely no sense.

2.Do CMx1 games have 10 x 200+ hand crafted maps that are better quality than the auto-generated ones? Yes. Do at least a portion of gamers prefer the simplicity & time savings of auto-generated maps than trying to find user maps for their QBs. Absolutely. So the fact that there are lots of pre-made maps does not mean that having an auto-generated map feature would not be even better for gamers like me. And there are plenty of us.

Why is this such a sacrilege?

[[hirr]Leto]

Maybe I just want a snickers at home instead of having to go find a godiva store ...

This really isnt that complicated. When comparing CMx1 game features to CMx2, CMx1 has a good feature (whether you want to admit it or not) that is not included in CMx2, i.e. auto-generated maps. I know they will never be in CMx2. Im not even asking for them to be added. But dont try to act like NOT having auto-generated maps is an improvement ... or whatever point you are trying to make.

See this is where it gets ridiculous.

1. So CMx1 would be a better game without auto-generated maps? Absolutely not. Then why do you say that CMx2 is better without that feature. Makes absolutely no sense.

2.Do CMx1 games have 10 x 200+ hand crafted maps that are better quality than the auto-generated ones? Yes. Do at least a portion of gamers prefer the simplicity & time savings of auto-generated maps than trying to find user maps for their QBs. Absolutely. So the fact that there are lots of pre-made maps does not mean that having an auto-generated map feature would not be even better for gamers like me. And there are plenty of us.

Why is this such a sacrilege?

Uhh, beta testers have exchanged years of sex for helping to develop the new game...

Isn't it obvious?

: )

Cheers!

Leto

[C'Rogers]

The biggest improvement coming to CMx2 for someone just use to CMx1 is the computer opponent. I played four single player battles in CMx1 (that is across all three titles) and hundreds of multiplayer battles. I don't have the time anymore for multiplayer that much, but have been more than happy with the single player option.

There were/are four things that were a problem with CM:SF; QBs, buggy release, setting, and uneven forces. The latter two are matters of personal opinion, the bugs were worked out, and it sounds like QBs will be improved for CM:BN. I think the only complaint left is auto generated maps (though I like CM:SF, so I might be missing something).

[sburke]

This really isnt that complicated. When comparing CMx1 game features to CMx2, CMx1 has a good feature (whether you want to admit it or not) that is not included in CMx2, i.e. auto-generated maps. I know they will never be in CMx2. Im not even asking for them to be added. But dont try to act like NOT having auto-generated maps is an improvement ... or whatever point you are trying to make.

Actually I disagree, poor maps, which I saw plenty of, made the QB option something I didn't really find useful. Having a quick battle option with good maps is more than just an improvement to me, it actually makes it something I will consider using. If I had to chose between any other feature and having auto generated versus hundreds of premade maps for me it is an easy decision. I am not sure I really understand the fixation for auto generated versus pre generated maps. No offense but it almost sounds like semantics.

See this is where it gets ridiculous.

1. So CMx1 would be a better game without auto-generated maps? Absolutely not. Then why do you say that CMx2 is better without that feature. Makes absolutely no sense.

2.Do CMx1 games have 10 x 200+ hand crafted maps that are better quality than the auto-generated ones? Yes. Do at least a portion of gamers prefer the simplicity & time savings of auto-generated maps than trying to find user maps for their QBs. Absolutely. So the fact that there are lots of pre-made maps does not mean that having an auto-generated map feature would not be even better for gamers like me. And there are plenty of us.

Why is this such a sacrilege?

CMx1 without quick battles wouldn't have changed my opinion of the product as I felt that QB maps (no offense intended BFC) pretty much sucked. As to time savings, you don't have to search for other maps, you can simply accept the first one it gives you. However if for example you wanted a hedgerow infantry fight you can opt for a different map than the first. For me it is a win win all the way around. I can't say there are plenty of me unless someone wants to start a survey, but I haven't seen anything in the argument for auto generated maps that the new model can't accommodate and do better than CM1 did.

Sorry don't mean to be dense if I am missing the point, but what do you see as the significant difference that an auto generated map has over a premade auto selected map keeping in mind that A)the premade maps are of superior quality and you have the option if you so choose of picking a different map if the first doesn't match the type of battle you want?

[ClarkWGriswold]

1. So CMx1 would be a better game without auto-generated maps? Absolutely not. Then why do you say that CMx2 is better without that feature. Makes absolutely no sense.

Would CMx2 be better with auto-generated maps? Of course. But only if the auto-generated maps were of decent quality. They weren't great quality in CMx1, and CMx2 is vastly more complex. The number of terrain types, building types, etc. is much, much higher in CMx2. Not to mention the addition of flavor objects, the much higher resolution terrain, the need for AI plans, etc. It's a huge undertaking.

So, yes, it would be GREAT if CMx2 had a way to auto-generate good quality, playable maps. If you can somehow find a way to fund the programming talent required to make this happen, I'm sure BFC would be open to your proposal.

[womble]

This really isnt that complicated. When comparing CMx1 game features to CMx2, CMx1 has a good feature (whether you want to admit it or not) that is not included in CMx2, i.e. auto-generated maps...

I'm with you there, up to this point.

See this is where it gets ridiculous.

1. So CMx1 would be a better game without auto-generated maps? Absolutely not. Then why do you say that CMx2 is better without that feature. Makes absolutely no sense.

That's not what people are saying. They're saying that the replacement for random maps (lots of high quality maps made by dedicated fans, with plans for AI that will make solo play a bit closer to meaningful) is better than a) random maps in the CMx2 engine (which wouldn't have AI plans, and would be even screwier than some of the trash the CMx1 random map generator turned out) and the random maps in CMx1 (which while convenient weren't very good).

Do at least a portion of gamers prefer the simplicity & time savings of auto-generated maps than trying to find user maps for their QBs.

A non-point, since that portion of gamers won't have to 'try and find user maps' - there are over 300 included with the base game. And you'll reject less of them since they're rationally rather than randomly designed.

Why is this such a sacrilege?

It's not sacrilege. And yes, if some philanthropist were to set up a trust to fund the development of a random map generator (or even a farm of talent making rational maps) then it'd be great to have a random map generator. But the chances of that happening are less than that of me winning the EuroMillions jackpot on Friday. And it's not like the alternative actually sounds that bad. Maybe it'll seem restrictive right quick; 300 maps might not go so far when it's divided into size categories and terrain types. And maybe it won't.

[Phoenix]

Just making sure everybody knows why there are no randomly generated maps and never will be.

So you're telling me there's a chance! YEAH!!!*

*Dumb and Dumber reference. Sorry.

[dkchapuis]

Actually I disagree, poor maps, which I saw plenty of, made the QB option something I didn't really find useful.

Well you are obviously a very different player than i am. I have played hundred of QBs, 90% on auto-generated maps, against probably 100 different people. I cant remember one person saying they would only QB on a custom map. I am sure they are out there, but I didnt find them.

Having a quick battle option with good maps is more than just an improvement to me, it actually makes it something I will consider using. If I had to chose between any other feature and having auto generated versus hundreds of premade maps for me it is an easy decision. I am not sure I really understand the fixation for auto generated versus pre generated maps. No offense but it almost sounds like semantics.

You do know that you can use pre-made map in CMx1 games? Done that plenty of times, but it was always more work than just having the game build one.

Sorry don't mean to be dense if I am missing the point, but what do you see as the significant difference that an auto generated map has over a premade auto selected map keeping in mind that A)the premade maps are of superior quality and you have the option if you so choose of picking a different map if the first doesn't match the type of battle you want?

The significant difference is that you have instant and infinite playability on - what myself and the hundreds I played against - decent maps without having to take extra time to find a map. As I have said before, it isnt that big of a deal. I just feel like I am being told the game is better without the auto-genate option, which makes no sense to me. (And I understand why there is no auto-generate. Im fine with that.)

And now that I am thinking about this, the CMx1 auto-maps were better than the game supplied CMSF maps that I played QBs on in CMSF (an admittedly small sample).

[dkchapuis]

That's not what people are saying.

Is that not exactly what MikeD said

Complaining about lack of random generated maps is like complaining about not being able to buy a Snickers bar at a Godiva chocolate outlet. For one thing, CMx2 an entirely different product from CMx1. Nothing was 'taken away' because it was never there to begin with. For another, you're asking for the product to be made inferior to what's being offered.

[ChrisND]

Folks, this is getting a little silly. This is over a feature that isn't even ever going to exist, so it seems like a waste of everyone's time and energy to me.

[sburke]

Folks, this is getting a little silly. This is over a feature that isn't even ever going to exist, so it seems like a waste of everyone's time and energy to me.

Probably, but it beats pressing F5. Distributes the wear and tear on my fingers.

[dkchapuis]

Ridiculous was the term I used ... sigh. but it continues.

Do at least a portion of gamers prefer the simplicity & time savings of auto-generated maps than trying to find user maps for their QBs.

A non-point, since that portion of gamers won't have to 'try and find user maps' - there are over 300 included with the base game. And you'll reject less of them since they're rationally rather than randomly designed.

I dont think this is a non-point. I'm sure I played 300 CMx1 QBs. The majority of those were medium size, small village or farmland, moderate trees, moderate hills. Those are the maps that I liked. So to find unique maps the play CMBN on that will give me the replayability to 300 QBs will take time trying to find more maps. And then add that into trying to make sure that your opp hasnt played on the map before. I'm not saying that CMBN sucks because of it, I'm just saying it isnt as good as having an auto-generated map.

And you'll reject less of them since they're rationally rather than randomly designed.

I never rejected any CM auto-generated maps. Not once that I can remember.

To be a CMx2 fan do you have to believe that CMx1 auto-maps sucked? The only map I ever remember being unhappy playing on was a CMSF non-auto-generated map.

[dkchapuis]

Probably, but it beats pressing F5. Distributes the wear and tear on my fingers.

Exactly. release the game already so we can stop all this nonsense

[Battlefront.com]

This really isnt that complicated. When comparing CMx1 game features to CMx2, CMx1 has a good feature (whether you want to admit it or not) that is not included in CMx2

But the point here is the two games aren't the same, so nothing has been "removed" from CMx1 no more than all the new stuff were "added".

Well you are obviously a very different player than i am. I have played hundred of QBs, 90% on auto-generated maps, against probably 100 different people. I cant remember one person saying they would only QB on a custom map. I am sure they are out there, but I didnt find them.

There's several people in this very thread who are saying exactly this. And trust me, every time this topic comes up there's plenty of people who say "I didn't like CMx1 random maps".

You do know that you can use pre-made map in CMx1 games? Done that plenty of times, but it was always more work than just having the game build one.

There's 300+ included with the game and I'm sure people will put up "packs" with even more. So your point isn't really valid. You could say that you don't think 300 will be enough, but you can't say it's a lot of work to use what is already included because that's not true. This seems to be a point you're not understanding, so I'll state this again...

The ONLY difference between starting up a QB game with CMx1 and CMx2 is with CMx2 the choice of maps is limited to what is installed. To start out with that's 300+ maps.

There's no difference other than that.

I just feel like I am being told the game is better without the auto-genate option, which makes no sense to me.

To some it is. We think it is as well, but we don't mind agreeing to disagree. But you should understand that just because this is a step backwards for you doesn't mean it isn't a step forwards for someone else.

And now that I am thinking about this, the CMx1 auto-maps were better than the game supplied CMSF maps that I played QBs on in CMSF (an admittedly small sample).

Better maps or better games? There's a difference. I think most will say that the overall QB experience with CM:SF wasn't as good as CMx1. But I do question the honesty of saying that the quality of hand made maps are, on average, worse than randomly generated ones. I certainly can't see much truth in that statement.

Is that not exactly what MikeD said

It's his opinion that hand made maps are better to play on than randomly generated ones. This is a point of view that many support, though obviously you do not. Again, you have to accept this to be a valid point of view if you expect anybody to accept your point of view as valid. After all, both of you are expressing an opinion.

Steve

[LJFHutch]

While I see auto generated maps as pointless, isn't it possible to have computer aided terrain building? Lets say you want to make a large mountain, you could set the computer to fill in the blanks, you could have it add in different and varying terrain types for different areas, even have it use different ground types for elevation.

A lot of the time what really improves the look of CMSF maps is a lot of varied ground type, the problem is it's a bit tedious to build all of that yourself.

[[hirr]Leto]

But the point here is the two games aren't the same, so nothing has been "removed" from CMx1 no more than all the new stuff were "added".

There's several people in this very thread who are saying exactly this. And trust me, every time this topic comes up there's plenty of people who say "I didn't like CMx1 random maps".

There's 300+ included with the game and I'm sure people will put up "packs" with even more. So your point isn't really valid. You could say that you don't think 300 will be enough, but you can't say it's a lot of work to use what is already included because that's not true. This seems to be a point you're not understanding, so I'll state this again...

The ONLY difference between starting up a QB game with CMx1 and CMx2 is with CMx2 the choice of maps is limited to what is installed. To start out with that's 300+ maps.

There's no difference other than that.

To some it is. We think it is as well, but we don't mind agreeing to disagree. But you should understand that just because this is a step backwards for you doesn't mean it isn't a step forwards for someone else.

Better maps or better games? There's a difference. I think most will say that the overall QB experience with CM:SF wasn't as good as CMx1. But I do question the honesty of saying that the quality of hand made maps are, on average, worse than randomly generated ones. I certainly can't see much truth in that statement.

It's his opinion that hand made maps are better to play on than randomly generated ones. This is a point of view that many support, though obviously you do not. Again, you have to accept this to be a valid point of view if you expect anybody to accept your point of view as valid. After all, both of you are expressing an opinion.

Steve

Whoa. Hold on here. I hope you are not suggesting that dkchapuis must accept MikeyD's point of view to make his own point of view legitimate... especially when it is obvious that MikeyD obviously does not reciprocate?!?!

What kind of twisted logic is this?

Opinions are opinions, and whether they are respectful of others opinions is superfluous to their being exactly what they are.

I think the better route to take here is that everyone perhaps should cool down and realize that these are just that: opinions.

Sheesh!

Leto

[Sergei]

I'm sure that it would be possible - there's really nothing that you can imagine that cannot be done, given enough programming time, but whether maps are completely or partly auto-generated, it still is a lot of work to make it function reliably, otherwise you might end up with cliffs in bad places etc. It's simpler to build a map, then make a few variations of the map because then the variations will be sensible.

[Blackcat]

If memory serves, and it may not because age is a terrible thing, in CMx1 didn't we go through all the procedure of selecting forces before we even saw the map we were going to fighting over? I do remember having some horrendus maps and a lot of maps that, despite complying with the agreed parameters, were just totally wrong for the force mix I had chosen. However, as rejecting the map meant that my opponent and I would have to start all over again we very seldom, if ever, bothered (especially when his force mix was suitable for the terrain!).

The thing that killed long term replayability of CMSF for me was the lack of TCP/IP WEGO, but I am sworn never again to raise the subject on these boards. So I shan't, except to use my gripe to illustrate the point Steve made earlier. Lots of players find different things important to them, often mutually exclusive to other players wishes (see the current thread on display of effective ranges as an example). BF have to find a path through those competing demands that, I guess, satisfies the maximum number whilst staying true to their own vision of what their games should be. I think they do that fairly well, on the whole.

[LJFHutch]

No I don't mean anything complicated, just the basic stuff like:

* Paint in a straight line

* Pain a road and have it automatically put the correct pieces in place

* Paint with a grouped selection of terrain and/or vegetation

* Temporarily restrict painting to a certain terrain height

etc

[gunnersman]

I HATED the random maps in CMx1.

[vincere]

Wow, 300 maps is a lot. Much more than I was expecting.

[Fenris]

I HATED the random maps in CMx1.

I liked them. Played them more often than user created scenerioes.

/emote shruggs

Mainly because I could setup everything just how I liked it. It's obviously premature to judge the CMBN QB experience with no game time, I'll probably be able to basically everything how I like it still, so all this may well just be hot air (what else are we to do whilst we wait?).

It is classic horses for courses though. I'm in the "it'd be really nice to have in CM2 because that's how I used to play CM1" camp but as it's been explained (quite patiently) on more than one occasion and the reasons seem perfectly valid. Fair enough it's not an option in CM2, things are different, it's a new version and we'll have lots of maps to choose from in the end anyway. It's not something that effected my pre-ordering CMBN.

-F

[sonar]

Installed new video drivers and been playing the new cmsf demo the past few weeks to get used to it. Game runs great now and judging by what i've seen, I think cmbn is going to be a great game.

Anway my point is, Iv'e been playing with the editor a bit and have to say that there's no cause for concern about the lack of auto generated maps. Get the hang of the editor and you can make a playable map in minutes for human v human.

And looking at it another way, if you just add some random elevation points, the program will generate a map with more than enough features to be tacticaly interesting,then bash some trees down, a bit of this a bit of that anywhere you feel.

Do it all in the editor without looking at 3d preview, save and play 70% auto generated map.

I don't see this as so different, after all, when you created a random map in cmx1, you would then have to remove all the soft ground, water,marsh and other misplaced tiles, here you just add some.