Weapon Effective Range and Ammo Type

[AslakH]

Nope, there's nothing 7.92 in the 8mm Mauser. Only Americans call it 7.92.

But enough off-topic.

That's funny. On the cartridge boxes it says "7,92mm SmK".. And those (mine) are from 1940-1944.

I've got hundreds of boxes (each with the 15 cartridges in stripper clips), and they all say 7,92, NOT 8mm.

[LemoN]

Funny, all (original) boxes I've seen were either named 7.9mm (add abbreviation here) or 8mm. I know that there's a lot of talk and confusion about this subject, but most "sources" I've seen that call it 7.92 are American, not German. And post-war military ammunition is also primarily called 8x57IS.

[AslakH]

Then you are mistaken, good sir.

If it's any help: It also says 7,92mm on the AP bullets.

Even the post-war Raufoss production called it 7,92mm. That was produced for a little while for Heimevernet (Home guard) before they upgraded the Mausers to .30-06.

I've been hearing "8mm Mauser" my whole life, and I own two Mausers myself, so the terminology isn't all that important. No?

Perhaps "8mm" is a British thing? Like screwing over the world by driving on the wrong side and calling everything "Mark -insert number here-".

[ClarkWGriswold]

I do have examples of all the cartridges listed above excepting the .50 and the Sturmgewehr 7.92x33mm. I can take and post a picture of them if anyone wants to see them. The modern Russian 7.62x39mm is a close match the Stg 44s round for comparison sake though.

Speaking as a fellow firearm enthusiast, I'd love to see a comparison picture. I keep a bunch of different pistol and rifle rounds for guns I don't even own just so I can ogle them and compare. But most of what I have is American or Russian. Other than 9mm Parabellum and 9mm Kurz I don't have anything German as a comparison.

[Magpie_Oz]

Perhaps "8mm" is a British thing? Like screwing over the world by driving on the wrong side and calling everything "Mark -insert number here-".

1. British would call it 0.315" (like .303)

2. they, and we and the Japanese who make the most cars, drive on the correct side of the road as it dates to ancient times when you needed your right arm facing in, in case there were wrong-doers on the road. Later a Pope decreed that the left side was the side to ride on then it was the French (of course) who in thumbing their nose at the Pope changed to the right.

3. Yes the "Mk whatever" is such a bad way of referring to things.

I much prefer the American set up, it makes everything so easy. I can wake up to the ring of my M1, grab my M1, put on my M1's, go out through the M1, get into an M1 drive to the tank park and get into my M1, go and pick up my M1, M1, M1, M1 and M1 not forgetting my M1 of course and then head out to the range and test fire my M1 by loading it with an M1 and aiming with the M1 and shooting at an old M1.

I can then have a coffee in my M2.

[Magpie_Oz]

Here is a beaut picture:

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/2020/completerifleammunition.jpg

[~Viajero]

Somebody had a spread sheet with all this info for CMBO, hopefully he will share it with us once again. My CMBO computer died so I do not have it anymore. :mad:

The old tables (http://mysite.verizon.net/pchardwarelinks/cm/) wouldnt they help regarding range and firepower estimates? Look at the Infantry tables for CMAK for example. They state the good old 4 discrete ranges that would show when clicking a unit (40m, 100m, 250m, 500m) and the applicable firepower for each... good enough?

[womble]

Needing to pack entire encyclopedias with your product is as out of date as plus fours

I don't know whether that's poppycock or a straw man.

I think it's a straw man, because you don't need to 'pack an entire encyclopedia with your product' to deliver the information people are asking for.

It's poppycock, because we don't know the sources that BFC used to determine the effectiveness of given weapon systems and we don't have years to do the extensive research and might not arrive at the same conclusion if we did. Neither have we been trained on nor fought with and/or against all these weapon systems, so passing on a distillation of the knowledge to the (possibly new to the genre, especially at this level of accuracy) player is entirely reasonable. The old 'info' screen from CMx1 was hardly information overload.

[stikkypixie]

I don't know whether that's poppycock or a straw man.

I think it's a straw man, because you don't need to 'pack an entire encyclopedia with your product' to deliver the information people are asking for.

It's poppycock, because we don't know the sources that BFC used to determine the effectiveness of given weapon systems and we don't have years to do the extensive research and might not arrive at the same conclusion if we did. Neither have we been trained on nor fought with and/or against all these weapon systems, so passing on a distillation of the knowledge to the (possibly new to the genre, especially at this level of accuracy) player is entirely reasonable. The old 'info' screen from CMx1 was hardly information overload.

Look just wait for the game to come and see whether any additional information is needed or not. Arguing about this is not going to help, even if everyone agrees there is still the question of not having enough resources to implement this or any other practical reason.

[Phantom Captain]

Ok, here's a few pics...

First, for clarity, and obviously not just we Americans...

Yugoslavian surplus 8mm Mauser sniper ammo from the 1980s

Left to right, 1st four are pistol/SMG ammo, middle two are carbine/assault rifle, last four are full rifle ammo

Left, .32 (7.65), Russian 9x18mm Makarov, 9mm, .45 ACP

Middle is .30 Carbine and Russian 7.62x39mm which is close to what the Stg 44 used.

Right, British .303, Russian 7.62x54mmR, 8mm Mauser, American .30-06

Here is a German 5 round stripper clip and an American 8 round Garand clip.

[noxnoctum]

Totally agree with Elmar 100%. Tool tips would be great, and I can't imagine them being THAT hard to implement. I mean it's just text. No calculations necessary (as for the penetration texts), just simple if mouse cursor is over box X then show Y info depending on what weapon is in box X. And it would not overburden the UI.

[noxnoctum]

I have a suspicion that everyone here already has a pretty good idea how far a Colt pistol slug will carry and the effective range of the M1 Garand. Its not exactly like we're discussing exotic weaponry or that the game's being bought by morons who never heard of WWII. I agree most people won't bother to Google weapons stats - mostly because they already know the weapons stats.

I have no effin clue except I know the effective range of a Garand is probably around ~250 meters. Just a guess from my time spent playing WW2 shooters and watching youtube vids of it being fired. I very rarely hit a target with it beyond 250 meters. Of course that's from a GAME, and I have no idea how close CMBN's calculations for small arms are to reality. Plus firing under combat conditions 70 years ago =/= firing at a gun range or off in the desert in the middle of nowhere with your redneck buddies and a couple beers.

Anyways, it's pretty silly to assume all (or even most) of the players will have an encyclopedic knowledge of WW2 weaponry. I definitely have no idea what the effective range of say... a 30 cal. machine gun is or a standard sherman's main gun.

That said if you're LOOKING to turn away new players who are less "groggish" then leaving this out and keeping that same attitude of yours is a surefire way to do it. The one thing that usually turns people off wargames (even wargamers!) is usually crappy UI + lack of info. Assuming the game is of course decent quality and doesn't have completely garbage gameplay.

If the info is so "pointless" to have and clutters up the UI why did CMx1 have it?

I know the calculations are more complex now which is all the more reason to have it since the game is no longer a very complex version of chess.

This whole attitude of just "play the game, you'll find out" is pretty dumb. With that logic why bother to include a manual at all? Or any information for that matter? Maybe the screen that shows what weapons the squad has in CMSF and CMBN should be erased too because "after all" one SHOULD know what weapons a standard Wehrmacht panzergrenadier squad carried. Only a complete tard would confuse a Panzerfaust 30 with a Panzerfaust 60. And hey, if your guy carrying the machine gun in a squad dies, you should be able to tell by just zooming in and LOOKING AT THE WEAPONS. DURHHHHHH.

[Marco Bergman]

Now there's an optional version of the silhouette mod with effective ranges. (As per CMBN manual.)

[stikkypixie]

Now there's an optional version of the silhouette mod with effective ranges. (As per CMBN manual.)

Hey Marco, ever told you, you were my hero .

[noxnoctum]

Now there's an optional version of the silhouette mod with effective ranges. (As per CMBN manual.)

I'm confused, is this in the game or is it a mod you've already made for the game?

Either way, great news!

[c3k]

Marco,

Excellent, beautiful, useful, thankful.

Ken

[para]

Now there's an optional version of the silhouette mod with effective ranges. (As per CMBN manual.)

great work

[Vinnart]

For small, or large caliber it seems easy enough to remeber this rifle takes that ammo, and has this efective range. Large caliber kills everthing from pretty much any range. Where things get a bit obscure is with mid caliber weapons where range played a roll in pentration. At least this is what I recollect from Cmx1. I recall that things such as a 37mm being able to damage a Panther in the rear at under 100mm. Things like that get a little gray for me in remembering.

[Vinnart]

Marco, very nice!! Already got it on my mods to install list. Looks great, and adds more functionality to UI. Now if we can just mod those casualty weapons to turn red when casualty so you know what weapon is down without having to zoom to ground level to see the 3d model. After medic aid, and weapon retrieval the weapon icon would disappear from the UI roaster as they do now.

[GonzoAttacker]

Thanks Marco, I love Modders that think outside the box!

[Chops]

Now there's an optional version of the silhouette mod with effective ranges. (As per CMBN manual.)

Marco, that certainly helps. Now if you could just add in the ammo type for each weapon we would be good to go.

As an amateur weapons "expert" at least by my experience with quite a few WWII weapons in real life and a collector of sorts it's really very very simple for Normandy.

Thanks for the great info you provided.

[umlaut]

Its not exactly like we're discussing exotic weaponry or that the game's being bought by morons who never heard of WWII. I agree most people won't bother to Google weapons stats - mostly because they already know the weapons stats.

OK. So now I´m a moron because I don´t have the same knowledge of weapons stats as you, MikeyD?

How about tank ammo, armor thickness, vehicle speeds and weight, aren´t these just a five second google search away too? No need to bother having them in the game as well, I guess.

Come to think of it, why bother with graphics at all? We all know what a Sherman and a SPW 251 looks like. And if we don´t, there is always google.

Well, if your opinions had been prevalent in CM1, I wouldn´t have bought any other CM game than the first CMAK copy I stumbled upon.

And I certainly wouldn´t have been around this forum now, having preordered CMBN.

[vincere]

Excellent if that's a mod ripe for release.

Regarding too many variables. Most are not asking for pression tables for every contingency just a rough accurate guide to unimpeded effectiveness. As for this being useless info I wonder why modern professional armies teach individual and squad effective ranges so that troopers know them by heart.

[dan/california]

For small, or large caliber it seems easy enough to remeber this rifle takes that ammo, and has this efective range. Large caliber kills everthing from pretty much any range. Where things get a bit obscure is with mid caliber weapons where range played a roll in pentration. At least this is what I recollect from Cmx1. I recall that things such as a 37mm being able to damage a Panther in the rear at under 100mm. Things like that get a little gray for me in remembering.

If your down to a 37mm against a Panther I humbly submit its too late to matter.

[womble]

If your down to a 37mm against a Panther I humbly submit its too late to matter.

Maybe it's a case of "That M5 could poke its nose out and get a rear shot. Is it worth the exposure?" rather than being all that's left. And even if it is all that's left and it can line up the close range rear-aspect, it's nice to know you're not totally without a paddle. Or maybe you are. My memory of M5 Stuarts is that they always hit and usually knocked out whatever armour I was driving...