Weapon Effective Range and Ammo Type

[Chops]

Knowing the effective range and ammo type for a particular weapon is obviously critical information for a squad leader to have, and will have a significant impact on the tactics that he chooses to employ.

So, why isn’t this information made quickly and readily available to the player in CM? It looks like we are going to have the third major release of Combat Mission (CMSF, CMA, CMBN), without this information readily accessible to the player.

In CMSF and CMA when a player attempts to Acquire ammo for a unit, he is presented with a list of various weapons and ammo available in a pop-up list. Often times, the unit may have weapons that require different types of ammo, and so the player is presented with the problem of trying to choose the correct ammo types for his units weapons.

This information has been inconsistent and often omitted in the CMSF and CMA manuals, and looks to be the case once again for some of the weapons in CMBN. Supplying your unit with the wrong ammo type can have serious consequences when it comes time to fire the weapon obviously, and also can increase unit fatigue if they are hauling around a bunch of extra ammo that they can’t use. There is no ability to drop ammo in any of the CMx2 games so far.

A solution to this issue would be to make tool-tips available to the player in the UI. By putting the mouse cursor over a weapon in the UI, a tool-tip could be displayed which shows the weapon name, effective range and ammo type. Problem solved, simple.

I just reviewed the CMBN manual, and although it does a much better job in providing this information to the player than the CMA and CMSF manuals did; there is still important information missing.

Some weapons where the data on effective range and ammo type are incomplete in the CMBN manual are as follows:

M1 Carbine

M1A Carbine

M1903A1 Springfield

KAR98K zF/4

MG34 – range is presented in the interface, but effective range is not

MG42 – same as above

Regarding sniper rifles; in CMSF and CMA it seems that these weapons are automatically given ammo, and the player does not have the ability to Acquire more ammo, or determine exactly how many rounds the sniper has available. This is still unclear to me after playing CMx2 games for the last 4 years, and another gray area that has never been adequately explained in all this time.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

There was definitely an information shortfall in regards to this and other issues. CMSF never told you whether that Syrian 7.62 you picked up was 7.62x54 or 7.62x39 (it is the latter)

I too hope that CMN makes more use of mouse-over tool tips to fill in the information gaps a bit.

PS

New Times Roman? Don't make me go Old Times Boadicea on you.

[Sergei]

There was definitely an information shortfall in regards to this and other issues. CMSF never told you whether that Syrian 7.62 you picked up was 7.62x54 or 7.62x39 (it is the latter)

This was originally true, but by CMSF 1.31 (and CMA) the 7.62mm ammo's exact type is properly described. Also the 54R is acquirable from BMP's and BTR's.

[MikeyD]

So, why isn’t this information made quickly and readily available to the player in CM?

Ranges and calibers of everything is a 5 second Google search away. That's the kind of information someone needs to find out just once and not have hanging about cluttering the game. Needing to pack entire encyclopedias with your product is as out of date as plus fours. And you can find out what plus fours are by a simple five second google search.

Late patches of CMSF and CM:Afghanistan did indeed tell you the ammo type being acquired That was changed awhile ago. CM:BN does let you know whether your acquireable .30 cal is for the Garand or the carbine.

[Lt Belenko]

...plus fours. And you can find out what plus fours are by a simple five second google search.

It took me nine seconds to find this. The five seconds you allotted plus four.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

This was originally true, but by CMSF 1.31 (and CMA) the 7.62mm ammo's exact type is properly described. Also the 54R is acquirable from BMP's and BTR's.

Ah, cheers! I have either forgotten that or never noticed. Haven't used thr Syrians much lately. I did not exactly purchase the NATO module to then play the Syrians. (except for the Shilka!)

I do disagree with MikeyD on the information. While it doesn't need to be a wiki article, in game display of ammo type and range is a must IMHO and in the form of a tool tip it does not overburden the UI. To refer people to Google to understand basic gameplay elements like weapon range is a no-no to me. That simply will not do, certainly not for the more casual player. I do not even think having it merely in the manual is enough.

[Chops]

Totally with you Elmar -

In CMSF and CMA the type of ammo that goes with a particular weapon is not made easily accessible to the player, and often it is no where to be found. The manuals are incomplete. This is apparently still the case in CMBN.

Googling this information is not a 5 second process. The information that is returned is often contradictory and incomplete. So, why isn't this information made available in the manuals and the UI for the player? As I mentioned previously, the data on effective range and ammo type for a particular weapon is critical to the squad leader.

[LemoN]

Ranges and calibers of everything is a 5 second Google search away. That's the kind of information someone needs to find out just once and not have hanging about cluttering the game. Needing to pack entire encyclopedias with your product is as out of date as plus fours. And you can find out what plus fours are by a simple five second google search.

This is like saying "Proper sounds are just a mod away, let's just leave out all sounds!". And I'm sorry, asking for people to go out of the game and google things that are crucial to it is pretty ridiculous if you ask me.

[fugazy]

i agree with Chops.

for the the rifle M1 Carbine

or KAR98K

the distance of effective range: 100m or 200m?

[GonzoAttacker]

Somebody had a spread sheet with all this info for CMBO, hopefully he will share it with us once again. My CMBO computer died so I do not have it anymore. :mad:

[vincere]

Ranges and calibers of everything ... Needing to pack entire encyclopedias with your product is as out of date as plus fours. And you can find out what plus fours are by a simple five second google search.

I can see that, but maybe it went too far from a very infomative system to nearly nothing. Maybe a middling ground with some basic effective ranges as a guide. And yes most people can work out that if something gets in the way of the 300m rifle fire then effectivness drops.

There's plenty enough in the games that push reasonably well informed people out of the game and searching which is suboptimal imo.

Even the manual is not consistant. Ranges given for some- left to guess for others. It's a minor criticism but come on, "could try harder" applies here.

[goodwood]

Hey weapon range is simple to determine!

If you stand on a hill when getting shot at for a couple of minutes you're out of range, if you get killed your in range, but doesn't matter anymore

[dan/california]

The most excellent website you are reffering to is here.

http://mysite.verizon.net/pchardwarelinks/cm/

It really is quite good.

[LukeFF]

A tooltip which shows what type of weapon a soldier is carrying is already in the game. Hence, it would seem to be a simple task to add the caliber that said weapon uses. For instance, "M1 Garand - .30-06."

Telling people in this instance to go outside the game to find out the info they need is a no-go IMO.

[Michael Emrys]

And I'm sorry, asking for people to go out of the game and google things that are crucial to it is pretty ridiculous if you ask me.

Affirmative. Double plus ungood.

Michael

[MikeyD]

I have a suspicion that everyone here already has a pretty good idea how far a Colt pistol slug will carry and the effective range of the M1 Garand. Its not exactly like we're discussing exotic weaponry or that the game's being bought by morons who never heard of WWII. I agree most people won't bother to Google weapons stats - mostly because they already know the weapons stats.

[Blackcat]

I am with MikeyD on this. Besides what is effective range? It depends on the target as much as the weapon. With small arms a simple rule of thunb would be sufficient and a couple of games will give the player that, if they don't know already. Tripod mounted MG's have an effective range longer than most players will ever need (save perhaps the Bren, but let us not go there). For AT guns the variables are so many that the question cannot be answered in short form and for HE chuckers where there is an applicable limit the game tells you anyway.

I have more sympathy with the calibre issue, but then again you play the game once or twice and you'll know the answer.

Once a player has the information he doesn't need to be told it again and again and again and again and again ......

[Blackcat]

One other thought re small arms. The effective range of a full-bore WWII rifle used by a trained infantryman against roops in the open is longer than the distance any sensible player would want to open fire with it. So really the question is pointless.

[Michael Emrys]

One other thought re small arms. The effective range of a full-bore WWII rifle used by a trained infantryman against roops in the open is longer than the distance any sensible player would want to open fire with it. So really the question is pointless.

That's a point. In that case, the effective range is the one at which a soldier can consistently hit a man-sized target. And that is subject to so many variables as to be almost meaningless.

Michael

[Narsus]

That's a point. In that case, the effective range is the one at which a soldier can consistently hit a man-sized target. And that is subject to so many variables as to be almost meaningless.

Michael

Well it has to be in the programming, guess thats part of the programming stuff they like to keep vague.

[JonS]

Tripod mounted MG's have an effective range longer than most players will ever need ...

Can we keep in mind that MMGs and HMGs and a number of other specialist or obscure weapons do have their range noted in the in-game UI. You can see examples from about page 130 in the manual.

[Phantom Captain]

As an amateur weapons "expert" at least by my experience with quite a few WWII weapons in real life and a collector of sorts it's really very very simple for Normandy.

Germany utilized the 8mm Mauser caliber (7.92x57mm) for their main battle rifles, the k98 and Gewehr 43, and also used the same cartridge in both the MG 34 and 42. The round was completely interchangeble although, of course, the MGs were belt fed. Submachine guns used the 9mm as did their issue sidearms, the Luger and P-38. PPKs and PPs would be .32 (7.65mm).

The Sturmgewehr 44 was a completely new can of worms and utilized a wholly new cartridge the 7.92x33mm Kurz. This was the same caliber but in a shorter cartridge with lesser range. Thus the assault rifle came into being.

The effective range of the 8mm cartridge is easily 1000 meters but then you again run into the term "effective". Rarely if ever would soldiers be firing at each other at over 300 meters. This was the whole reason the assault rifle was developed. It was found the power and range of the full on rifle cartridge was not needed or utilized to its full extent. Most combat took place under 300 meters.

So in game terms I would say,

k98 and Gewehr 43 the effective range would be out to 500 meters in a trained soldiers hands even though it COULD hit targets out to 1000.

MG 42 and 34s mounted would be 1000 meters and carried would be effectively 500 meters though rarely utilized at those ranges.

Sturmgewehr 44 would have an effective range of 300 meters

Submachine guns wouldn't be used at much past 150 meters and most effective under 100.

On the American side the .30-06 basically played the same role and would have the same effective range of the 8mm Mauser.

M1 Garand and 03 Springfield would be the equivalent of the German main battle rifles.

The Browning 1919 and the B.A.R. also used the .30-06 cartridge and would have the equivalent range of the German MGs. The 1919 was belt fed and the B.A.R. magazine fed.

I would group the Thompson SMG and M1 carbine basically in the same category with the M1 carbine effective out to about 200 meters and the Thompson to 150. The Thompson is a beast under 100 meters as it utilizes the .45 ACP cartridge. Of course the M1 carbine uses a short M1 carbine caliber cartridge (.30 caliber as well but in a straight walled shorter case than the .30-06)

The Colt 1911 uses the same .45 ACP as the Thompson

The big difference in the American arsenal then is the M2 .50 cal. The mother of all MGs. Effective range is an easy 1000 meters and that big .50 caliber bullet is in a whole category unto itself compared to all the other MGs.

I do have examples of all the cartridges listed above excepting the .50 and the Sturmgewehr 7.92x33mm. I can take and post a picture of them if anyone wants to see them. The modern Russian 7.62x39mm is a close match the Stg 44s round for comparison sake though.

[LemoN]

As an amateur weapons expert you should know that it's called 8x57IS or 8mm Mauser, not 7.92x57IS.

[Phantom Captain]

As an amateur weapons expert you should know that it's called 8x57IS or 8mm Mauser, not 7.92x57IS.

I called it 8mm Mauser which in reality is 7.92x57mm.

[LemoN]

I called it 8mm Mauser which in reality is 7.92x57mm.

Nope, there's nothing 7.92 in the 8mm Mauser. Only Americans call it 7.92.

But enough off-topic.