Weapon Effective Range and Ammo Type

[Sgt Joch]

Knowing the effective range of weapons is good info to have and Marco's mod will be very popular.

However, that info is not really that pertinent to a squad leader on a WW2 battlefield or in CMBN.

1. almost all infantry combat took place at less than 300 meters. Even snipers rarely shot past that distance, there was a study done recently which showed that the average distance at which U.S. police snipers fired their weapon over a 20 year period was around 93 meters;

2. the role of small arms on a battlefield is not to kill, but to suppress, therefore ROF is more important than range. Small arms caused relatively few infantry casualties, around 10-20%. Most infantry casualties were caused by artillery/mortar fire.

In a German squad, the LMG was the most important weapon and everyone else was there basically to support/protect the LMG. In a U.S. squad, it was thought the semi-automatic Garand and the 1 BAR would provide the required ROF. When that turned out not to be the case, it became common practice for squads to acquire a 2nd or even 3rd BAR to supplement ROF.

In fact, the move to 5.56 ammo in the 60s was motivated principally by this. 5.56 ammo weighs less than half of what 7.62 weighs, therefore soldiers can carry more and provide a higher ROF.

[Phantom Captain]

Yep, and it was the principle reason that the Germans developed the Stg 44 assault rifle. It was found that almost all combat took place at under 300 yards. There really was no reason for a full powered, long range, heavier, rifle cartridge. A lighter, smaller, shorter ranged cartridge could still do the job effectively or even more effectively when taking into account weight and loadout amount.

On top of that, do you know how hard it is to hit a man sized target, or a man sized concealed and/or moving target at 300 yards?? Let me tell you...hard. At that range with iron sights on the rifles of that time your front post sight nearly covers the entire target. Not to mention that your sights would have to be adjusted, you would have to estimate, accurately, the range etc. etc. etc. It's not easy by a long shot and one of the primary reasons men would hold fire til there was a better chance at hitting. Suppressing would be nearly the only reason to fire at that range.

It's been said, many times, since our own little Civil War that the rifle changed the nature of combat with it's greater accuracy and range. While true on some accounts in many ways it hasn't. Most combat STILL happens on average of 100-200 yards or less albeit not in lines abreast anymore. That's not to say it doesn't happen at greater ranges but on average it's still relatively close. Men wait to open fire on targets they feel they can hit or are an imminent threat. Even during the Civil War, opening fire at distances greater than 200 yards was meant to stop or slow down advancing units by suppression and not actual hits in the same way it is today. For the average infantryman with an unscoped weapon, hitting anything beyond 100-150 yards is not an easy task while in the heat and adrenaline of combat.

[Battlefront.com]

There's definitely two major camps when it comes to information like this. There's the "don't clutter my UI with numbers. What do I look like, an accountant?!? I'll play intuitively, thanks very much" and the "give me everything in detail so I can make highly informed, calculated decisions without looking outside of the game (even the manual) for the info I need". There's all sorts of shades of gray and cross overs between these two camps, of course, but people generally fit more into one than the other.

For me, I'm an intuitive player. I know roughly what the effective ranges are of small arms, tank guns, armor, and even the various AT weapons like Panzerfausts. 95% of the time I correctly develop my strategies and plot my moves without making mistakes in terms of under/over estimating ranges and/or capabilities. For the other 5% I generally don't know I've made a mistake, the mistake doesn't wind up mattering, or at least I learn something and probably won't make that mistake again.

Because of this I will not be using Marco's Mod. Not because it's bad, but because it is bad for my style of play. Those numbers have no meaning to me, yet they clutter up the UI and detract form my enjoyment of the game. However, if you're not an intuitive player then a Mod like this is definitely a good thing for that type of player. And it's great that there are guys like Marco to make these things available to players.

Why not put these sorts of bits of info into the game as an option, even if they are defaulted to OFF? Because it takes time to implement and time is something we've always got less of than we need to do even a fraction of what people request of us. Having said that, as I've said we're going to spend considerable energy in UI work for the next major release of CM and optional features like minimum/maximum ranges are on the table for sure.

Steve

[Chops]

I also prefer a stream-lined UI. In CMx1 the ability to highlight a unit and then press the Enter key to get all kinds of good info was really helpful, and it kept the data out of the way until the player wanted to check it out.

This discussion has kind of tilted toward effective range, however, as mentioned in my original post, ammo loadout is a concern.

I have felt a lot of frustration while playing CMSF and CMA when trying to acquire the correct type of ammo for my troops, and am not looking forward to this issue again in CMBN. This may not be as big an issue in CMBN as it is in CMA.

Please, just provide a complete manual that tells the player what ammo goes with each weapon including sniper rifles.

Are snipers automatically provided with ammo? Can the player acquire ammo for snipers?

[Glukx Ouglouk]

In CM:A, what I found confusing was the use of the bars to indicate how much ammo of a given type is left, whith only two categories for rifle/MG ammo, when many units in the game can use 3 or more types... That's mostly a problem for mid-war soviet units which have a mix of 5.45x39 and 7.62x39 assault rifles/LMGs (as well as SVDs firing 7.62x54) in the same squad - it makes acquiring ammo from vehicles quite a bit confusing. When a unit has expended, say, half its rifle ammo, there's (AFAIK) no way to know whether they mostly need to resupply 5.45x39 or 7.62x39. Of course, there are also the mujahideen units with half a dozen different ammo types, but resupply generally isn't an issue for them.

It shouldn't be such an issue for CM:BN though, as the actual ammo quantity is apparently displayed for each ammo type, from what I saw in the manual.

BTW, Chops, about sniper ammo: in one of the AARs which have been published here, the German player had a sniper resupply from a Kübelwagen, so that's definitely possible. Also, the manual does state which ammo each weapon use, but there are a few typo/mistakes (at least in the version they put in the online viewer), such as the same ammo being described by two different name (7.92x57 Mauser or 8x57 IS) or not using the same name in the text of the manual and in the game UI (.30-06 Springfield or .30cal M2 for instance)...

[JonS]

BTW, Chops, about sniper ammo: in one of the AARs which have been published here, the German player had a sniper resupply from a Kübelwagen, so that's definitely possible.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1223797&postcount=127

Actually, that sniper wound up needed to bomb up again. He did pretty well for himself, overall:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1228554&postcount=484

[stikkypixie]

In CM:A, what I found confusing was the use of the bars to indicate how much ammo of a given type is left, whith only two categories for rifle/MG ammo, when many units in the game can use 3 or more types... That's mostly a problem for mid-war soviet units which have a mix of 5.45x39 and 7.62x39 assault rifles/LMGs (as well as SVDs firing 7.62x54) in the same squad - it makes acquiring ammo from vehicles quite a bit confusing. When a unit has expended, say, half its rifle ammo, there's (AFAIK) no way to know whether they mostly need to resupply 5.45x39 or 7.62x39. Of course, there are also the mujahideen units with half a dozen different ammo types, but resupply generally isn't an issue for them.

It shouldn't be such an issue for CM:BN though, as the actual ammo quantity is apparently displayed for each ammo type, from what I saw in the manual.

BTW, Chops, about sniper ammo: in one of the AARs which have been published here, the German player had a sniper resupply from a Kübelwagen, so that's definitely possible. Also, the manual does state which ammo each weapon use, but there are a few typo/mistakes (at least in the version they put in the online viewer), such as the same ammo being described by two different name (7.92x57 Mauser or 8x57 IS) or not using the same name in the text of the manual and in the game UI (.30-06 Springfield or .30cal M2 for instance)...

I believe that for CMSF and CMA, the first bar represents 5.56 (or the Russian equivalent), the second bar 7.62 for assault rifles and the third 7.62 for MGs. You can easily verify this by acquiring a certain type of ammo and see what bar goes up.

[Glukx Ouglouk]

No, in CM:A there are only two bars for rifle/MG ammo (one for small arms, one for MGs); the other two bars are for rifle grenades and hand grenades.

[stikkypixie]

No, in CM:A there are only two bars for rifle/MG ammo (one for small arms, one for MGs); the other two bars are for rifle grenades and hand grenades.

Ha, I must have been sleeping all this time playing CM .

[aka_tom_w]

The most excellent website you are reffering to is here.

http://mysite.verizon.net/pchardwarelinks/cm/

It really is quite good.

That link should probably be a sticky.

[aka_tom_w]

As an amateur weapons "expert" at least by my experience with quite a few WWII weapons in real life and a collector of sorts it's really very very simple for Normandy.

Germany utilized the 8mm Mauser caliber (7.92x57mm) for their main battle rifles, the k98 and Gewehr 43, and also used the same cartridge in both the MG 34 and 42. The round was completely interchangeble although, of course, the MGs were belt fed. Submachine guns used the 9mm as did their issue sidearms, the Luger and P-38. PPKs and PPs would be .32 (7.65mm).

The Sturmgewehr 44 was a completely new can of worms and utilized a wholly new cartridge the 7.92x33mm Kurz. This was the same caliber but in a shorter cartridge with lesser range. Thus the assault rifle came into being.

The effective range of the 8mm cartridge is easily 1000 meters but then you again run into the term "effective". Rarely if ever would soldiers be firing at each other at over 300 meters. This was the whole reason the assault rifle was developed. It was found the power and range of the full on rifle cartridge was not needed or utilized to its full extent. Most combat took place under 300 meters.

So in game terms I would say,

k98 and Gewehr 43 the effective range would be out to 500 meters in a trained soldiers hands even though it COULD hit targets out to 1000.

MG 42 and 34s mounted would be 1000 meters and carried would be effectively 500 meters though rarely utilized at those ranges.

Sturmgewehr 44 would have an effective range of 300 meters

Submachine guns wouldn't be used at much past 150 meters and most effective under 100.

On the American side the .30-06 basically played the same role and would have the same effective range of the 8mm Mauser.

M1 Garand and 03 Springfield would be the equivalent of the German main battle rifles.

The Browning 1919 and the B.A.R. also used the .30-06 cartridge and would have the equivalent range of the German MGs. The 1919 was belt fed and the B.A.R. magazine fed.

I would group the Thompson SMG and M1 carbine basically in the same category with the M1 carbine effective out to about 200 meters and the Thompson to 150. The Thompson is a beast under 100 meters as it utilizes the .45 ACP cartridge. Of course the M1 carbine uses a short M1 carbine caliber cartridge (.30 caliber as well but in a straight walled shorter case than the .30-06)

The Colt 1911 uses the same .45 ACP as the Thompson

The big difference in the American arsenal then is the M2 .50 cal. The mother of all MGs. Effective range is an easy 1000 meters and that big .50 caliber bullet is in a whole category unto itself compared to all the other MGs.

I do have examples of all the cartridges listed above excepting the .50 and the Sturmgewehr 7.92x33mm. I can take and post a picture of them if anyone wants to see them. The modern Russian 7.62x39mm is a close match the Stg 44s round for comparison sake though.

Excellent, now everybody is up to speed, let's carry on.

[Battlefront.com]

It shouldn't be such an issue for CM:BN though, as the actual ammo quantity is apparently displayed for each ammo type, from what I saw in the manual.

Yes, and this is a good example of where we went too far in "keeping things simple". The CM:SF/A bars were designed to give people a solid idea of ammo levels, but not hit them with more numbers to read. This wasn't what people wanted so we changed it. With the big overhaul there will be a further refinement, but this was all we could physically squeeze into the existing UI for now.

Steve

[Broken]

No, in CM:A there are only two bars for rifle/MG ammo (one for small arms, one for MGs); the other two bars are for rifle grenades and hand grenades.

In CM:A, the 1st bar is for 5.45mm and the 2nd is for 7.62mm small arms. As you noted, the other two bars are for grenades.

Crewed MG ammo, on the other hand, has no bar representation. MG rounds remaining are listed on the ammo tab, just as for other crewed weapons and vehicles.

[leakyD]

Isn't having access to all this in-game data gamey?

Marco's mod is nice, but WAY to cluttered for me.

I guess that means I'm more the intuitive type of player. Less info makes gameplay more "real", in my opinion.

The new UI will help make us all a bit happier.

[ChrisND]

Isn't having access to all this in-game data gamey?

Marco's mod is nice, but WAY to cluttered for me.

I guess that means I'm more the intuitive type of player. Less info makes gameplay more "real", in my opinion.

It's the same for me. BUT, I would like to have the information somewhere where it isn't cluttering my UI up. Ideally, I'd like to see a pop-up window when you mouse over the weapons that infantry are holding, or over the vehicle silhouette. This window would give some fast and simple data.

Then, for more detailed stuff, an encyclopedia in the in-game menu options, like ToWs.

[Vinnart]

Tool tips are not gamey in all that they do is give information that is already there, but in a more at a galnce way. For example having a special icon for the sniper does not add "gameyness". It just lets you distinqiush and find the unit easier. Same as flag helps you find HQ's. These are just things that are within a game that help the player with situation awarness to better manging your forces when playing a game like CM, or any other RTS. "Gamey' to me is unrealistic ranges, damage models, troops that can run forever and not get tired, that kind of thing. In otherwords unrealistic game phsysics. For example if a a bunch of grenades being thrown at a Tiger tank were to destroy it I would call that "gamey". If my guys never got tired like in so many other RTS games, I would call that gamey. If adding a special icon to make finding the sniper easier made the unit invincible, or he shot laser beams I would call that gamey.

[leakyD]

Tool tips are not gamey

I was just being silly.

Having that kind of data in the backgroud (available with a few clicks, or on/off toggle, whatever) would be nice, and help satisfy more types of CM players.

[Glukx Ouglouk]

In CM:A, the 1st bar is for 5.45mm and the 2nd is for 7.62mm small arms. As you noted, the other two bars are for grenades.

Crewed MG ammo, on the other hand, has no bar representation. MG rounds remaining are listed on the ammo tab, just as for other crewed weapons and vehicles.

I was just quoting from the manual - not to mention that, when acquiring 7.62x39 ammo from a vehicle, I'm pretty sure it's the first bar that goes up (I'll check later, I can't launch CM:A right now). As for crewed MG ammo, I'm well aware of that - but there's at least one squad-level small arm which fires 7.62x54 ammunition (namely, the SVD), so you can definitely have 3 types of ammunition for small arms in a squad.

Anyway, the way it's displayed in CM:BN seems like it should be a good compromise until the next big overhaul of the interface, so I'm happy about that.

[Broken]

I was just quoting from the manual - not to mention that, when acquiring 7.62x39 ammo from a vehicle, I'm pretty sure it's the first bar that goes up (I'll check later, I can't launch CM:A right now). As for crewed MG ammo, I'm well aware of that - but there's at least one squad-level small arm which fires 7.62x54 ammunition (namely, the SVD), so you can definitely have 3 types of ammunition for small arms in a squad.

From the latest version of CM:A, acquiring 5.45mm makes the first ammo bar go up, and acquiring 7.62mm (either x39 or x54) makes the second bar go up. It was different in earlier versions of CM:A and the demo, which was when the manual was written.

I agree that the CMBN interface looks like an improvement.

[Glukx Ouglouk]

You're right, I didn't remember well and I got confused because I just looked at the manual instead of actually checking in the game. Anyway, CM:BN will be here soon!

[Kanonier Reichmann]

It's the same for me. BUT, I would like to have the information somewhere where it isn't cluttering my UI up. Ideally, I'd like to see a pop-up window when you mouse over the weapons that infantry are holding, or over the vehicle silhouette. This window would give some fast and simple data.

Then, for more detailed stuff, an encyclopedia in the in-game menu options, like ToWs.

Your suggestion here appears to be the 'perfect' solution in my eyes. It's a pity there wont be any changes to the UI for at least the next couple of years (based on how long it appears it will take to release a new game- not module- in the CMx2 series).

Regards

KR

[LemoN]

Your suggestion here appears to be the 'perfect' solution in my eyes.

Well, that's just an interactive way of the CMx1 style.

I still don't understand why they have cut that feature...

[Erik Springelkamp]

Well, that's just an interactive way of the CMx1 style.

I still don't understand why they have cut that feature...

They didn't 'cut' that feature, because CMx2 is a new game that inherited nothing from CMx1.

They didn't 'implement' that feature, because there were so many more important features to implement.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

They didn't 'cut' that feature, because CMx2 is a new game that inherited nothing from CMx1.

Except the name, the period of war being simulated, the weaponry, the combatants etc, etc- which creates certain expectations as a result.

Regards

KR

[GhostRider3/3]

I have a suspicion that everyone here already has a pretty good idea how far a Colt pistol slug will carry and the effective range of the M1 Garand. Its not exactly like we're discussing exotic weaponry or that the game's being bought by morons who never heard of WWII. I agree most people won't bother to Google weapons stats - mostly because they already know the weapons stats.

Although I believe most people buying stuff from Battlefront are not Morons, and are talking about the idiots playing other wargames... that think its history, My question is. what about the new kids on the block? You know the ones that now live in the computer age and never grew up with ASL, Panzer Leader, Panzer Blitz...etc That is the generation that believe you can always add more detail... the never happy generation... LOL. Although my fiancee's son loves first person shooters etc, he has become enthralled with everything WWII, since watching me play IL-sturmovik, and the games from Battlefront. Which to me is awesome that there could possibly new MEAT... that we can educate without all the BS... from tv.

Honestly though, I cant see a huge deal in making a pictoral index reference that you can access from the menu as being difficult, but then again Im not a computer engineer either. Today some kids really do not know crap about WWII, nor its weapons.. they only see and believe what they hear on TV. So when you come accross a game like Battlefront Normandy and all the others, its a real pleasure, some people though are just asking for a little more detail. I guess like anything, we will always want more, thats what makes us, and things better the next time... listening to consumers. But from reading the posts.. this edit... looks like we will have ranges etc in the UI. Again hats off to all the Beta testors and the team from Battlefront.