Interested_Viewer Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Let me preface this by saying that this, in no way, is meant to complain, ridicule or attempt to shed Battlefront in a bad light. I think that the personal relationship Battlefront has with its hardcore user base is fairly unique, and with that comes good opportunities for things like this. Maybe this is the wrong forum (literally and figuratively) for this discussion/question, but I am, as the title states, genuinely curious about the following. Back in September of 2009, I, like most of you, was extremely giddy to see Steve's remark posted about CM:BN being on track to be "mostly done" by Christmas [2009]: As for release we've decided we're not going to rush things to get it out by Christmas as originally planned. We would rather enjoy the Holidays Our goal, however, is to have it mostly done before taking some time off at the end of the year. That is still our plan and we're still thinking it is possible. We'll know much better in a month. Steve Granted, "mostly done" is somewhat subjective and no release date was specifically speculated upon but, from a software development standpoint, what exactly happened? Were there large scale technical issues that needed to be worked out still? Was it a case of underestimating the small details/polishing/bug fixing/testing? Was it realizing you had no deadline as an indie developer and you could keep adding features from your wishlist to make it fit the vision? Any specific nuggets/examples/anecdotes that are worth sharing? Any take-aways from the experience? (besides never to drop any hints of release dates ) Again, this is in no way a "gotcha" type of post, and I realize that it's things like this that push toward the "it's done when it's done" mantra. Just hoping to hear some interesting development stories! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dakuth Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 I'm also kind of curious. IL2: COD did the same thing on a larger scale. I think I remember Oleg saying something like "we're expecting a release some time in 2006" originally. Ok, fine, it didn't come out until 2011 and other than teething problems it feels very much like a 2011 game.... but I do have to wonder what happened to change the timeframe by 5 years. Or in CM:N case, over 12 months. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfhand Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 I have no way of knowing what happened but, as one who likes conjecture, my money is on feature creep and if that's the case more power to BF. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leakyD Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 Probably the same reason MS nuked Windows Longhorn 1/2 through development. I've been in some some dev cycles and, with creating certain funtionality, you can paint yourself into a corner. You then have the fun task of trying to fix. Sometimes it just make sense to nuke from orbit. It can be the best way to make sure something is truly fixed and scalable. We have, what, 2-3 more iterations of the engine. Maybe more? These are games, not modules (CM:SF was ONE game, with numerous modules). That's, what, 5+yrs or so? That's some serious forward thinking/scalability for a game engine. NOT something that can be created without some time. CM:BN is gonna be good. CM: OstFront is going to be nuts. Worth the wait. Yup. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 The short answer is software development spits in the face of predictable end dates. Obviously things took us a LOT longer to "wrap up" than we thought. There were no issues of any individual significance. Nor did we ever slack off on full development. Hell, we even hired a second programmer for the first time ever and he (Phil) made some huge contributions to CM:BN already. When one makes a game with 1000s of individual features, it's not hard to have major development time overruns. Especially when we care about how it all works together. This, BTW, is why you guys constantly see me telling people "nice idea, but no time for that". We could keep going for another 10 years if we tried to do everything at once. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dakuth Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 In the words of one of my favourite characters in my current favourite TV series: Cool. Cool cool cool. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 I may be wrong, but I think when the original CM:BN schedule was first posted CM:Afghanistan wasn't even a gleam in the developers eye. Then it was born as a wholly 3rd party project, then it evolved into a project wth a little BFC assistance, then a project that dragged on 6+ months longer than anticipated! Add to that, during development BFC's poor volunteer testers have had to endure floods, fires, earthquakes, blizzards, recessions, heart surgeries, and Carnival in Rio! Its a wonder any of us survived! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 ...and Carnival in Rio! Its a wonder any of us survived! Carnival in Rio, eh? What a bunch of heroes. I'm impressed. Yeah, impressed. Michael ( ) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 I posted this old interview of Charles last week, in which he details the development process. It's a 9 years old article, but I think it's still very insightful. (Note: if it gives you a 404 error, just press F5 until the page loads.) http://www.gamespot.com/gamespot/features/pc/postgame_wrapup/index.html The Christmas season and spring of 2000 passed with our team hunkered down working 80- to 100-hour weeks, trying to finish Combat Mission. Tank models, AI tweaks, scenario building, and heavy play testing were the order of the day. It was a bit frustrating, because you could literally sit down, play a full game, and say to yourself, "This game looks finished." But you knew it wasn't, because some models weren't in yet, or the AI would act strangely in certain circumstances. And the manual wasn't finished (partly because I, as the sort of programmer whom manual writers around the world must revile, insisted on adding new features far past the point at which any reasonable person would). So the entire spring season was spent finishing and polishing. Creeping Featuritis: What game developers worth their salt don't miss a few deadlines? Our problem wasn't that we were slow programmers. Our problem was that we didn't know how to say "no" to people with good ideas. We kept adding features late in the development cycle, even past the time when we probably should have frozen the code. Combat Mission became a better game from this sort of last-minute input, but it took a lot longer to make than we had intended. But on balance, I'm glad we did it this way, because I can't think of a single feature now in the game that I wish we hadn't put in. By spring of this year, though, it was clear that someone had to shut off the idea spigot, or we'd never finish. The role of Draconian Evil Overlord fell to me, such that exchanges late in the development cycle were a bit like: "Hey Charles, I was thinking we could add..." "No." "Charles, I hav..." "No." "Char..." "No!" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ng cavscout Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 World In Flames coming out from Matrix Games was originally forecast to come out in Spring of 2006. I would rather have a quality game later than a buggy pos sooner. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Belenko Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 Delays are caused by the 90-90 Rule of Software Development. The first 90% takes 90% of the time and the last 10% takes the other 90% of the time. I think BFC learned their lesson of unfinished SW with the premature release of CMSF. We will mumble, gripe, and bitch about the delays, but we will will much prefer a finished product...especially if it comes in a tin box. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Tiger Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 World in Flames is finally finished? OMG! It's been so long I'd actually forgotten all about it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crushingleeek Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 So, anyway, whats the new release date estimate? just kidding, jk jk but no, really, when's it coming out? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finalcut Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 World in Flames is finally finished? OMG! It's been so long I'd actually forgotten all about it.Not yet.They are saying release will be sometime this Century.By the time they are done someone will have invented a Time Machine and we will be able to go back in time to witness the great Battles of WWII in true first person perspective.:mad: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 I'm still eagerly awaiting Road to Moscow... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 I'm still eagerly awaiting Road to Moscow... Ha ha! What a long memory you have, Grandma. :D Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 Ah... Road to Moscow... the insider info I have about that would be entertaining to post, but probably not very nice Let's just say we've used that as a sort of reminder of what not to do Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interested_Viewer Posted April 6, 2011 Author Share Posted April 6, 2011 The short answer is software development spits in the face of predictable end dates. Obviously things took us a LOT longer to "wrap up" than we thought. There were no issues of any individual significance. Nor did we ever slack off on full development. Hell, we even hired a second programmer for the first time ever and he (Phil) made some huge contributions to CM:BN already. When one makes a game with 1000s of individual features, it's not hard to have major development time overruns. Especially when we care about how it all works together. This, BTW, is why you guys constantly see me telling people "nice idea, but no time for that". We could keep going for another 10 years if we tried to do everything at once. Steve Good answer, thanks! I'm sure the finished product will reflect the passion you all have put into it! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 Delays are caused by the 90-90 Rule of Software Development. The first 90% takes 90% of the time and the last 10% takes the other 90% of the time. lol, Shrapnel Games must be doing the 90-90-90-90 Rule of Software Development with their All American game. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Are they STILL advertising that? Cripes, he tried to pitch that to the company I used to work for before starting up Battlefront with Charles. That was like... two game company lifetimes ago Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodin Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Yeah their still advertising it...every year the date changes....ridiculous...why not just state it isn't getting done...the graphic engine alone would look terrible these days...the first was a great game, though having to move every individual across acres of farmland with most of the time nothing happening became a little tiresome...they were going to sort that out in the second game...by not making it at all... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Amazingly you can still pre-order the game for $50... talk about throwing money away. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praetori Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Yeah their still advertising it...every year the date changes....ridiculous...why not just state it isn't getting done...the graphic engine alone would look terrible these days...the first was a great game, though having to move every individual across acres of farmland with most of the time nothing happening became a little tiresome...they were going to sort that out in the second game...by not making it at all... Everything is complete, minus a few missions, that won't be completed until testing starts and we know the ai changes are working. So, maybe That was in August 2004 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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