close combat and scavengers

[fabiovir]

Hi everyone and happy christmas,

this game seems fantastic and finally is coming out what one time let me dream....

Iwould like to know if close combat (fist, kick, knife and entrenching tool) will be there and if scanenging weapons and ammunition from fallen enemies is possibile.

Thanks for every kinda of replies.

[gibsonm]

No (at least in terms of animations) and No.

[Berlichtingen]

While there were instances of enemy weapons being used, it was far from widespread... usually out of necessity. Picking up an enemy weapon and ripping off rounds with it is a good way to get shot by your own men. The one notable exception is the PPsH submachinegun... those were popular with the Germans on the Eastern Front

[Lanzfeld]

But hand to hand fighting (abstracted) is in there.

[MikeyD]

There is scavanging - just not of enemy weapons. A soldier will pick up a weapon off a fallen comrade just like they do currently in CM:SF. Using enemy weapons can be something of a double-edge sword. The last thing you want your buddies to do is panic and start firing in the general direction of the sound of a burp gun firing - especially if you're the guy holding the burp gun. The only exception I'd make to this, if I had a magic wand, would be scavanged Panzerfausts. G.I.s like scavanged fausts.

[finalcut]

Many pictures of the Vietnam War show U.S Soldiers carrying AK 47's.Even seen some guys in Iraq carrying these with thier M4 slung.Of course,anyone that ever used an M16 would understand why.

[gibsonm]

Sure and Brits scavenged Argie boots in the Falklands but it doesn't change the fact that is not going to be implemented.

[SlapHappy]

Many pictures of the Vietnam War show U.S Soldiers carrying AK 47's.Even seen some guys in Iraq carrying these with thier M4 slung.Of course,anyone that ever used an M16 would understand why.

They wanted to switch to a much more wildly inaccurate weapon?

How many times does the ak vs. M-16 BS need to be debunked?

[Berlichtingen]

They wanted to switch to a much more wildly inaccurate weapon?

Why not? They switched from the M14 to the M16

How many times does the ak vs. M-16 BS need to be debunked?

Yep, I was a rifle expert with the 16. No problem hittin' a target at 500m, and that's next to impossible with an AK... however, at 100m on automatic, the difference is not noticable. The real killer in Vietnam was the fact that the M16 (M16, not M16A whatever) was it was HIGHLY prone to jamming.

Still, the AK was NOT used much my US troops in Vietnam. Very distinctive sound when fired. Guaranteed to draw friendly fire. ARVN weapons were somewhat popular... M1 carbines, geese guns, etc, as were shotguns and M14s.

Until the initial problems with the M16 were solved, it was a steaming pile of dung.

[Battlefront.com]

Most pictures of soldiers with captured weapons boil down to two usual situations:

1. Rear soldiers picking up stuff to pretend they are cool

2. Frontline soldiers posing with trophies

One thing that has been commented on by MANY is how much US military personnel seem to be into collecting enemy gear. There was even a sort of black market in Europe where soldiers would bring captured stuff (especially daggers and pistols) to someone known to deal with such things, cash or favors were exchanged, and the items would then go to another set of hands and so on.

Which means I don't pay much attention to pictures of US soldiers toting enemy weapons. I doubt many of them were ever used in combat.

Berli,

There is a story I have repeated many times whenever this question comes up. It was a small patrol that was ambushed in Iraq during the earlier occupation days. They got split up in the confusion and one of the soldiers, on his own and inside a house, grabbed the home owner's AK when his M4 jammed. He fired it out the window at where the enemy was known to be and immediately regretted it as a hail of bullets from his buddies came flying in at him. This was an ambush of roughly a single US Rifle Squad. If that few soldiers would jump on an AK being fired, imagine how much fun it would have been for that guy if there was a platoon or company in the same area. He'd be lucky if he didn't find out first hand what a Javelin can do to someone in a confined space.

So it would seem that firing an enemy weapon in general combat circumstances was something a soldier would do only once. Either because he narrowly avoided being killed by his buddies or because he didn't.

Steve

[MikeyD]

Many pictures of the Vietnam War show U.S Soldiers carrying AK 47's.Even seen some guys in Iraq carrying these with thier M4 slung

I'm reminded of big city cops in the good-old-days who'd carry an unregistered backup piece (often code named a 'ham sandwich', I believe) to plant on the bodies of unarmed suspects they've shot, or in more extreme circumstances to shoot the suspect with a weapon other than his service weapon. They weren't exactly carrying the piece because they preferred the weapon's handling.

[Michael Emrys]

Until the initial problems with the M16 were solved, it was a steaming pile of dung.

Thirty years ago I had a neighbor who had been a Marine sergeant in Viet Nam and he confirmed that. He also swore that you could take an AK and bury it in mud for a week, dig it up and aside from just hosing it out, do nothing to it but slap a magazine in it and it was ready to fire as long as you'd put ammo in it. Now, he could have been exaggerating, I had no way to tell. But the bottom line is that rugged dependability is one of the AK's main selling points.

Michael

[ChrisND]

Thirty years ago I had a neighbor who had been a Marine sergeant in Viet Nam and he confirmed that. He also swore that you could take an AK and bury it in mud for a week, dig it up and aside from just hosing it out, do nothing to it but slap a magazine in it and it was ready to fire as long as you'd put ammo in it. Now, he could have been exaggerating, I had no way to tell. But the bottom line is that rugged dependability is one of the AK's main selling points.

Might depend on who manufactured it. I'v handled AKs that would jam up like nobody's business.

[Aragorn2002]

I have a question about the close combat aspect. What will happen when two units stumble upon each other? How will they fight it out? Can bayonets or spades be used?

[c3k]

I foresee a brawl test: two opposing (fanatic) squads who TARGET empty ground until they are totally out of ammo. Then they advance into a high walled courtyard (the arena). Each TARGETS the other. Then we watch.

[LJFHutch]

Thirty years ago I had a neighbor who had been a Marine sergeant in Viet Nam and he confirmed that. He also swore that you could take an AK and bury it in mud for a week, dig it up and aside from just hosing it out, do nothing to it but slap a magazine in it and it was ready to fire as long as you'd put ammo in it. Now, he could have been exaggerating, I had no way to tell. But the bottom line is that rugged dependability is one of the AK's main selling points.

Michael

Arguably that's not needed if your soldiers can clean their weapons though. Like the Katana, the AK-47 is hyped so much it has achieved almost a mythic status in people's minds. Remember too that an M16 from the Vietnam era is a very different weapon to a modern M16A4. I think that when given the option to pick up a gun laying on the ground that is foreign or continuing to use the weapon you have trained with, it wouldn't be unreasonable to choose the latter, even if the other weapon was superior. I'll be happy with whatever is the most authentic however.

[Michael Emrys]

Arguably that's not needed if your soldiers can clean their weapons though.

Certainly. But one of the reasons the AK is so popular in Third World countries is that the troops receive so little training and almost none at all in care of their weapons. In many parts of Africa the "troops" are little more than armed bandits anyway. I'd be willing to bet that care of weapons discipline in Second World countries is often less than top notch as well.

Michael

[c3k]

Huh, I never knew there was any kind of debate about these two POST Normandy weapons. Is there any difference between their recoil, ballistics, accuracy, ruggedness, production cost, target effects, penetration, weight, or maintenance requirements? If so, please post!

Oh, but let's NOT post here... CMSF's forum would seem marginally more appropriate.

Regards,

Ken

[Sakai007]

When I was in the Army I had a SSgt that told me to make sure I had an AK or two in what ever vehicle I was using on patrol. That way if I greased a not so bad bad guy I could fire off a few AK rounds into the wall, drop the weapon, and say they were an insurgent. No bull folks, and this was in Basic training. The SSgt in question was a bad a** tho and I have no doubt he was telling me this from experience.

[Lanzfeld]

I own both. I love both. I prefer the M-16 to the AK. The M-16 is just as reliable. You can put it in mud as long as you want and it will function just fine. Same with the AK. Both great but I just like and trust the M-16 more.

FWIW

Sorry....off topic.

[vincere]

When I was in the Army I had a SSgt that told me to make sure I had an AK or two in what ever vehicle I was using on patrol. That way if I greased a not so bad bad guy I could fire off a few AK rounds into the wall, drop the weapon, and say they were an insurgent. No bull folks, and this was in Basic training. The SSgt in question was a bad a** tho and I have no doubt he was telling me this from experience.

Sad, because slack fire discipline should be locally jumped on; and units have enough integrity and balls to deal with the rare psychopath, and sex pest. But the press publish too much guff when they get a wiff of accidents and mistaken judgement calls. So I have sympathy for the AK in the vehicle

[Sakai007]

I'll tell ya, from what I was told, and this isn't a whole lot, the reason this SSgt was with our unit was because he had killed a bunch of civs that were being used as human shields by some insurgent. The insurgents opened fire on his patrol and he returned fire with a Mk.19 AGL. You can imagine for yourself how that worked out, anyways, he showed up some pictures he had taken shortly after the incident. Not of bodies or anything, but of him kneeling on the ground vomiting as he was pretty shook up about the whole thing. They sent him home and on to DS school, and he was waiting for the appointment to DS school when he was with us. I have heard of the drop weapon thing happening after all this in the news and went "I hope thats no one I know". I took the idea with a grain of salt, but others, who knows.....

[Krilly]

When I was in the Army I had a SSgt that told me to make sure I had an AK or two in what ever vehicle I was using on patrol. That way if I greased a not so bad bad guy I could fire off a few AK rounds into the wall, drop the weapon, and say they were an insurgent. No bull folks, and this was in Basic training. The SSgt in question was a bad a** tho and I have no doubt he was telling me this from experience.

Reading this made me quite a bit angry tbh. :mad:

Sad, because slack fire discipline should be locally jumped on; and units have enough integrity and balls to deal with the rare psychopath, and sex pest. But the press publish too much guff when they get a wiff of accidents and mistaken judgement calls. So I have sympathy for the AK in the vehicle

I don't. But then I am a civilian prone to thinking about how it would feel if you lost a loved one this way and the offenders 'covered it up' in this manner....

Anyways..... back on topic.

(because I dont intend to open a can of worms here.)

Scavanging sounds like a cool feature, but hey how much impact would it really have on the gameplay? Like MikeyD said, I think the biggest plus to gameplay it would give is if GI's could scavenge fausts. *shrug*

I wouldn't miss it if it doesn't make the cut.

[Lanzfeld]

Did GI's ever really scavenge panzerfausts? I have never heard of this and I wonder if it happened....in a documented fasion. I mean that I never read about it despite my rather large WWII book collection.

[Mord]

My favorite AK story was one I heard on Weaponology I think, where they said a LRRP came across a dead VC that had rotted into his weapon...one of the guys picked it up and gave it a try and it fired.

Mord.