close combat and scavengers

[Sakai007]

Did GI's ever really scavenge panzerfausts? I have never heard of this and I wonder if it happened....in a documented fasion. I mean that I never read about it despite my rather large WWII book collection.

I was wondering about this myself. I have heard several people here and on other forums and I heard it mentioned several time. I also have done much research myself at the local library and on the web to no avail. I would love if someone could provide a link to any information on the subject. I can imagine that US troops would have wanted effective personal AT weapons and since Bazookas weren't handed out to rifle squads, what choice do you have. In WinSPWW2 mech rifle squads are issued Bazookas, I wonder if this was accurate since no other war games I've played include this.

@ Krilly - Sorry I what was written angered you, but since it had to do with uses for enemy weapons I added it. Just to make it clear, I myself didn't see these events so whether of not they actually happened, I don't know, but I do know that the streeses of combat can do strange things to a soldier if there is not an adequate structure around him to provide a release. Only took me one visit to Togus as a kid to figure that out. Anyways, sorry for the hijack!

[Battlefront.com]

The only bit of evidence I've ever seen was limited to the 82nd Airborne. According to some documentation they stocked a very limited number of PFs at Divisional level. The numbers cited were way, way too small to have been seen on the battlefield in any significant way. Likewise, there is no evidence I'm aware of that they actually used the stocks they kept a hold of. Which means even this one instance leaves the question unanswered.

Now, the truth is that the real battlefield was not all that hung up on standards and common experiences. There are pics of Germans driving around in captured US vehicles, there are anecdotal stories of Allies using MG42s in desperation. Panzerfausts used by Allies in combat? I don't doubt for a second it happened more than once. But did it happen enough to put into the game? No, I don't think so.

Steve

[roadiemullet]

what if, rather than make it a staple game element, using enemy goodies like fausts or that mg42 in a panic was put in as a random thing that only happened 1 in 10,0000 sort of thing? Im going to take a big fat assumption and say that the basic animation for say - an american using a pzfaust - is there as it wont be much different (if at all) than a german using it? So u could have the standard half the squad dead and the one guy picks up the BAR and starts blatting off for 99.9999% of the time, but every now n then he picks up the mg42 off Gerry instead because hes pooing it. The coding cant be that complex... could it? like 10 mins work (yeah again great big assumption)...

I kno this is hardly going to replace the top spot for the ToDo list but it would be a really cool gaming moment for the player if it happened. call it an Easter Egg thing. Think of the screenshots in the forum and the wargasm's that would follow!

Cmon steve, yeah its one in a hundred thousand thing but if collectively all the CM fights weve all had put together produced 5 or 6 of these odd moments they would give it that sense of randomness real battles give you.

Do it man do it!

[Dietrich]

My two bits (two cents adjusted for inflation):

I'm far less concerned about my American pixeltruppen grabbing a stray MG34 and opening up with it than I am about my German pixelGruppe losing their MG-Schütze to a .30-06 ball round and promptly getting the MG back in action.

That said, I'm not actually all that concerned about the latter eventuality. I'm sure CMBN will play just fine. =)

[Lanzfeld]

My two bits (two cents adjusted for inflation):

I'm far less concerned about my American pixeltruppen grabbing a stray MG34 and opening up with it than I am about my German pixelGruppe losing their MG-Schütze to a .30-06 ball round and promptly getting the MG back in action.

That said, I'm not actually all that concerned about the latter eventuality. I'm sure CMBN will play just fine. =)

I think what you are saying here is that if your German MG guy is hit you want the rest of the squad to immediatly pick up the MG FIRST and use it BEFORE they start to give buddy aid?

I AGREE!!!!

[Dietrich]

I think what you are saying here is that if your German MG guy is hit you want the rest of the squad to immediatly pick up the MG FIRST and use it BEFORE they sart to give buddy aid?

Yep.

(This.

+1.

Whatever it takes to make the message long enough. =P)

[ChrisND]

The only bit of evidence I've ever seen was limited to the 82nd Airborne. According to some documentation they stocked a very limited number of PFs at Divisional level. The numbers cited were way, way too small to have been seen on the battlefield in any significant way. Likewise, there is no evidence I'm aware of that they actually used the stocks they kept a hold of. Which means even this one instance leaves the question unanswered.

IMO this was probably used for familiarization training, which believe the 82nd conducted for German weapons.

[LongLeftFlank]

I think what you are saying here is that if your German MG guy is hit you want the rest of the squad to immediatly pick up the MG FIRST and use it BEFORE they start to give buddy aid?

I AGREE!!!!

I dunno if I agree -- they might or might not choose to aid their comrade first, regardless of what you the commander may wish. Even if they were in peril of being overrun without the MG. Perhaps Crack/Fanatic troops might make a different choice than Greens.

[Dietrich]

But getting the MG back into action promptly (even before buddy aid) doesn't preclude buddy aid, does it? Or is it a "only one or the other" matter?

(Before some wiseacre points it out: Yes, two men per foxhole was the general rule, so there wouldn't necessarily be anyone close enough to grab the MG right away. =P)

To put it another way: if a German squad's MG man goes down and there are two squaddies nearby, one to give buddy aid and the other to grab the MG, I'd like to see the MG be back in action while the wounded gets treated. Emphasis on "like". Since "national differences" are omitted, though, I reckon any casualty's MG34 or 42 will be brought back into action no more promptly (if at all) than any BAR or Bren.

[Michael Emrys]

The only bit of evidence I've ever seen was limited to the 82nd Airborne. According to some documentation they stocked a very limited number of PFs at Divisional level. The numbers cited were way, way too small to have been seen on the battlefield in any significant way. Likewise, there is no evidence I'm aware of that they actually used the stocks they kept a hold of. Which means even this one instance leaves the question unanswered.

Do you recall where you read that, Steve? From memory, General James Gavin in his memoir writes that a warehouse of Fausts was captured in the chase across France. Since nobody else was interested in them, the 82nd. ended up with virtually the entire hoard and used them extensively in the Bulge and afterwards.

He also writes that the 82nd. had become aware of the shortcomings of the Bazooka as early as Sicily and were eager to transition to a more powerful weapon. All in all, I find his account credible on this topic, but if you have a better source...

Michael

[Sakai007]

Maybe they could be issued only to the 82nd and only during certain time periods, i.e. the Bulge and crossing into Germany. In any sense, the chase across France and the Bulge are both out of the scope of Normandy, but I think it would be a great addition to future modules

OT - I have been playing a lot of Theatre of War 2: Caen and have found that, in contrast to a CM game, this game is almost dependent on enemy weapons and equipment. I know u can turn the auto - pick up off but, i never do it's fun to get an MG42 if you don't already have one Now if Normandy was out already, I would be playing that, but nooooo....... LOL, j/k, take all the time u need, I'm sure it will be worth the wait!

[Battlefront.com]

That reference from Gavin's is about the only one we've ever seen. It is entirely possible that he was mistaken and that in fact they were just used for training/familiarization. As any US Army vet of Afghanistan or Iraq will tell you that is a practice that is still common. How many pics have you seen of US soldiers messing around with RPGs, RPKs, AKs, etc? Do any of you guys think this means that US soldier go riding into battle with RPGs on their shoulders? I sure hope not

Steve

[Gromit]

That reference from Gavin's is about the only one we've ever seen. It is entirely possible that he was mistaken and that in fact they were just used for training/familiarization. As any US Army vet of Afghanistan or Iraq will tell you that is a practice that is still common. How many pics have you seen of US soldiers messing around with RPGs, RPKs, AKs, etc? Do any of you guys think this means that US soldier go riding into battle with RPGs on their shoulders? I sure hope not

Steve

Like with most of these topics, it's the old "possible" vs "probable" argument. I am sure it was possible that those things happened, just not probable enough that one can conclude a statistically-relevant number of American soldiers walked around with a PF "just in case". Hence, in terms of CM, it's not even worth bothering thinking about its inclusion.

Still... that doesn't mean it isn't fun to shoot the breeze about them.

[Wiggum]

Without reading through the hole thread.

Will there be those cool close-combat sounds like in the CMx1 games again ?

You know, the screaming and beating noise if there was close-combat going on...

[vincere]

Without reading through the hole thread.

Will there be those cool close-combat sounds like in the CMx1 games again ?

You know, the screaming and beating noise if there was close-combat going on...

I think that they've said yes; but no animations.

In a recent SF thread some guys said that there was a jerking animation during close combat in CMBB. Been some time since I booted up CMBB so can't remember, but some guys claimed to enjoy watching the jerking as much as some of us enjoyed the sounds.

[Redjac]

It was more of a necessity for the Germans compared to U.S. The germans didn't seem intimidated by sound mis-recognition, and to say so is modern thinking bunk. The M1 carbine was given a a german designation and re-issued to soldiers on the west front late 44. The german's were also happy recycling french and czeck guns. If the ammo was around, it was used.

Saw reports of british paratroopers scavaging zeltbahn rain gear because it worked better than theirs. And believe it or not brits liked MP 40's over their stens. (who would want an mp 40)

I supppose this behaviour is relegated more so to special hard core units rather than regular conscripts due to training and familiarity with enemy weapons.

[Dietrich]

In a recent SF thread some guys said that there was a jerking animation during close combat in CMBB.

In CMBB and CMAK (I only ever played the demo of CMBO; sacrilege, I know =P), when an infantry unit suffered a casualty, whether from fire or close combat, the pixeltrupp[en] would recoil as if taking a hit to the head.

Given that in CMx2 an individual pixeltrupp casualty falls to the ground, a big part of the visual simulation of close combat is already "in".

[vincere]

In CMBB and CMAK (I only ever played the demo of CMBO; sacrilege, I know =P), when an infantry unit suffered a casualty, whether from fire or close combat, the pixeltrupp[en] would recoil as if taking a hit to the head.

Given that in CMx2 an individual pixeltrupp casualty falls to the ground, a big part of the visual simulation of close combat is already "in".

Hey, yes, I remember that. Wonder if the sounds will be similar.

And now we have individual pixel troops I really wonder at what range it will trigger.

[Sakai007]

Hey, yes, I remember that. Wonder if the sounds will be similar.

And now we have individual pixel troops I really wonder at what range it will trigger.

To add to this, I wonder if it will trigger for each individual soldier, or for the unit area as a whole (assuming the squad hasn't been split, then it would be two separate areas I suppose.

[ASL Veteran]

The obvious problem with using enemy weapons aside from the recognition factor would be ammunition resupply. Even assuming that someone picked a weapon off the enemy they would probably only be able to use it for the rest of that firefight and maybe one more, then your pockets would be empty because the supply sergeant isn't going to have any more ammo for you.

Having said that, I also agree that having it happen every once in a while as a random occurrence could add flavor to the game, just like adding heroic or berzerk status to soldiers would add flavor. It would make the pixeltruppen less robotic. The cost vs benefit calculation for something like that would be difficult though since it would be so hard to measure the benefit something like that would add to the game. The 'coolness' factor would definitely be there for many, and I could definitely see the forum explode as someone posted screens of one of those infrequent events after they took place. Eventually the novelty would wear off, but the impact of something random and unexpected would juice a few players I have no doubt about that.

[Sakai007]

This is almost exactly what is written in the TOW2 manual. Funny it says to use enemy weapons when ever possible if they are superior to yours, but that ammo will be gone when it's gone unless you capture more along the way. I can see that fighting on the Eastern and Western fronts would be different in this regard. Since there was a large gap in quality of German and Soviet weapons early in the war, and gap that was much smaller when compared to the Allies in Europe. Sure, there are many individual examples of one piece of equipment being better then the adversary's corresponding piece, but the command and supply structure was out standing for the most part, as was initiative of junior officers and NCOs, which really make a difference on the battle field.

[Battlefront.com]

The Eastern Front was different for other reasons. One, Soviets surrendered in HUGE numbers on a fairly regular basis. The Germans were also on the offensive for most of the war and therefore overran lots of supply points which the Soviets had some problems moving on short notice (especially early on when that would be seen as defeatist!). Couple this with the length of the conflict and lots of things change compared to the Western Front.

For example, the Germans had literally millions of small arms and hundreds of millions of rounds sitting around gathering dust just from the first 2 years of the war. In fact, they even had the time and inclination to re-chamber PPSh to fire 9mmm Lugar. Proportional to German issued weapons the numbers were relatively small, but I expect some rear units and security forces had a larger proportion of them compared to their frontline brothers.

And to a lesser extent the same was true in reverse for the later years. The Soviets employed fairly significant numbers of captured German tanks as did the Germans earlier on. Again, large defeats meant at least temporary plenty.

Steve