CM:N - the simple things request thread

[noxnoctum]

An assault command in the style of Rainbow Six "clear room" with a couple grenades thrown in first. In other words, going in with guns at the ready. Maybe you could even have a "heavy clear room" and "light clear room", light being storming in without grenade prep.

Just not the current, "run into room in a single file line, stop, circle up, then scan for targets inside room".

Also the ability to move waypoints ala CMx1.

[Lanzfeld]

Progressive/spreading fires please.

...and show damage on tanks (penetrating holes and blown off equipment).

[akd]

more keyboard inputs for editor, e.g. "DELETE".

[Sequoia]

Barbed wire, which to me is the single biggest feature missing from CMSF.

[MikeyD]

Hah! Reading over these posts my subconscious managed to dredge up a memory of that old 1980s Queen song "I want it all and I want it now". Wow, its a scary thing to find Queen songs in your head, its worse to admit it publically.

[panzermartin]

Hey i like that table idea. I'm not a fan of the current paper thin floating map board. Even CMx1 was better with the the more 3d edges. So better either a "wargame table" feel or an extended map like TOW.

[stoex]

Not to hijack the thread, but what's so bad about queen? they're a classic as far as I'm concerned, and I'm only 30.

Which brings me to - CM: Another one bites the dust

[ChrisND]

Hah! Reading over these posts my subconscious managed to dredge up a memory of that old 1980s Queen song "I want it all and I want it now". Wow, its a scary thing to find Queen songs in your head, its worse to admit it publically.

It just means you have good taste. Which IS something unusual to admit in the company of grogs.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

An assault command in the style of Rainbow Six "clear room" with a couple grenades thrown in first. In other words, going in with guns at the ready. Maybe you could even have a "heavy clear room" and "light clear room", light being storming in without grenade prep.

Just not the current, "run into room in a single file line, stop, circle up, then scan for targets inside room".

Also the ability to move waypoints ala CMx1.

Except that even Rainbow Six doesn't have an AI that pulls that off comvincingly. So expecting detailws room clearing drills in a combat game is not a very realistic expectation to have.

For a game where the focus isn't room to to room sweeps I get adequate results from either Hunt or Assault.

[noxnoctum]

Except that even Rainbow Six doesn't have an AI that pulls that off comvincingly. So expecting detailws room clearing drills in a combat game is not a very realistic expectation to have.

For a game where the focus isn't room to to room sweeps I get adequate results from either Hunt or Assault.

You're right SWAT 4 does a better job of it than Raven Shield probably.

I'm sure they could do something better than what they currently have. It doesn't have to look like some perfectly choreographed looking thing. I don't care about the animations, I just want them to go into the room guns firing.

BFC pulled off a VERY impressive animation with the wall hopping thing anyways, so I doubt it's beyond their capabilities.

[meade95]

The added feature of a CLEARING ROOM (light & heavy) would be fantastic - And is greatly needed in CMSF....and certainly in any CMSF-2.

[stikkypixie]

I don't understand why everyone is so worked up about clearing rooms. Surely any army worth its salt will know how to DEFEND one, and the end result would be the same.

[MikeyD]

Not to hijack the thread, but what's so bad about queen?

Queen had suffered the fate of many 1980s bands by being defined more by their pimply-faced fan base than their music. But it seems the reputation of Queen has been rehabilitated in recent years. There's even a Freddy Mercury biopic in the works!

[noxnoctum]

I don't understand why everyone is so worked up about clearing rooms. Surely any army worth its salt will know how to DEFEND one, and the end result would be the same.

Cause urban combat is only "adequate" as Elmar said... he's being a lot kinder than I would be . Non urban combat is great, looks great, sounds great etc... but not having a storm room command really makes urban combat a pain, especially in real time. Sure you can use suppressing fire right before they go in, but IMO the inclusion of one great feature (the option of light suppressing and heavy suppressing fire) should not have to be used as a "stopgap" because the game's lacking something it needs. But I posted a thread about it a while ago and apparently everyone disagrees with me except the dude above .

I know it's a tiny dev team. But it's a crucial feature IMO, in fact I'd rather have that and have the game ship without any scenarios/campaigns at all, than the reverse.

I can only hope BFC sees the wisdom in putting something like that in . If not in CM:N than in the Ostfront game I hope... (the one I'm really looking forward to)

[vincere]

Cause urban combat is only "adequate" as Elmar said... he's being a lot kinder than I would be . Non urban combat is great, looks great, sounds great etc... but not having a storm room command really makes urban combat a pain, especially in real time. Sure you can use suppressing fire right before they go in, but IMO the inclusion of one great feature (the option of light suppressing and heavy suppressing fire) should not have to be used as a "stopgap" because the game's lacking something it needs. But I posted a thread about it a while ago and apparently everyone disagrees with me except the dude above .

Make that 3. I would hope to see more command and possibly more context sensitivity as the engine deveops. Fore examplr assaulting through woods over open being nuanced. Squads moving along a track in diouble file. Out of all though, assault and clearing buildings are cleary the sharp end.

[stikkypixie]

Cause urban combat is only "adequate" as Elmar said... he's being a lot kinder than I would be . Non urban combat is great, looks great, sounds great etc... but not having a storm room command really makes urban combat a pain, especially in real time. Sure you can use suppressing fire right before they go in, but IMO the inclusion of one great feature (the option of light suppressing and heavy suppressing fire) should not have to be used as a "stopgap" because the game's lacking something it needs. But I posted a thread about it a while ago and apparently everyone disagrees with me except the dude above .

I know it's a tiny dev team. But it's a crucial feature IMO, in fact I'd rather have that and have the game ship without any scenarios/campaigns at all, than the reverse.

I can only hope BFC sees the wisdom in putting something like that in . If not in CM:N than in the Ostfront game I hope... (the one I'm really looking forward to)

It would take some of the chore out of urban fighting I agree, but sometimes I get the impression that people think this order will somehow magically allow them to clear rooms without casualties. I agree that troops walking in, stopping and then looking for enemies is real slow. But playing as a defender seeing your troops SLOWLY turning around to face the door where the whole US army just barged and then SLOWLy aiming is just as frustrating.

[Battlefront.com]

I'm sure they could do something better than what they currently have. It doesn't have to look like some perfectly choreographed looking thing. I don't care about the animations, I just want them to go into the room guns firing.

But that isn't SOP. Charging in with guns blazing sounds to me more like a Hollywood thing than a real thing. From everything I've seen, and read, soldiers going into a structure fire only when they have identified targets. This is because:

1. There is a danger of shooting friendlies, either inside or outside of the building.

2. You are letting the enemy know exactly where you are, which may not be where the enemy is.

3. An average house has probably 5-10 rooms on several floors. Are you saying that the whole time the soldiers are hosing down each and every room on each and every floor? I wonder where all that ammo comes from.

Now, am I saying that there is no suppressive fire? Not at all. I'm saying that suppressive fire, while clearing is going on, is minimal and directed at specific places for specific reasons. The existing Commands handle this quite well.

That being said, there can definitely be some issues with close combat fighting which we hope we can have solved by the time Normandy ships. And that problem has nothing to do with the Command, rather the same sorts of spotting limitations we've had since CMBO Alpha days. The limitations keep getting smaller and less extreme, but they remain now and will likely remain forever. Which means we're hoping to make an incremental improvement with Normandy and then more as we bump up the minimum computer specs over time.

BFC pulled off a VERY impressive animation with the wall hopping thing anyways, so I doubt it's beyond their capabilities.

Animations are extremely difficult for us to do. We've got many animations ahead of room clearing on our wish list.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

It would take some of the chore out of urban fighting I agree, but sometimes I get the impression that people think this order will somehow magically allow them to clear rooms without casualties.

As with many complaints we've seen since CMBO, we often have passionate arguments about how "impossible" something is and yet not many people agree. When we see these types of discussions we can't help but think that play style is more the issue than game deficiencies. Of course there is an argument to be made that the friendly TacAI could be smarter and therefore lessening the degree of game skill needed by the player. We're not opposed to that sort of argument, even though we might not ever address the concerns.

I agree that troops walking in, stopping and then looking for enemies is real slow. But playing as a defender seeing your troops SLOWLY turning around to face the door where the whole US army just barged and then SLOWLy aiming is just as frustrating.

Another common trait in many "this game is broken" lines of reason is forgetting to look at it from the other side. Usually there is a canceling effect that is being overlooked. Since the game always has, and always will have, a degree of abstraction we're more concerned about overall results. Based on the feedback here, tester experience, and our own experience... the overall effects of MOUT warfare are fine.

As I said above, this doesn't mean things are perfect. The problem is when two units are in close proximity to each AND know it, then the frequency of spotting checks should be increased and reaction times decreased. Unfortunately this is a rather thorny technical issue which isn't easy to solve. Therefore, as long as both sides are equally effected the overall results are acceptable for now.

Steve

[noxnoctum]

But that isn't SOP. Charging in with guns blazing sounds to me more like a Hollywood thing than a real thing. From everything I've seen, and read, soldiers going into a structure fire only when they have identified targets. This is because:

1. There is a danger of shooting friendlies, either inside or outside of the building.

2. You are letting the enemy know exactly where you are, which may not be where the enemy is.

3. An average house has probably 5-10 rooms on several floors. Are you saying that the whole time the soldiers are hosing down each and every room on each and every floor? I wonder where all that ammo comes from.

Now, am I saying that there is no suppressive fire? Not at all. I'm saying that suppressive fire, while clearing is going on, is minimal and directed at specific places for specific reasons. The existing Commands handle this quite well.

That being said, there can definitely be some issues with close combat fighting which we hope we can have solved by the time Normandy ships. And that problem has nothing to do with the Command, rather the same sorts of spotting limitations we've had since CMBO Alpha days. The limitations keep getting smaller and less extreme, but they remain now and will likely remain forever. Which means we're hoping to make an incremental improvement with Normandy and then more as we bump up the minimum computer specs over time.

Animations are extremely difficult for us to do. We've got many animations ahead of room clearing on our wish list.

Steve

You're right I misspoke, what I'm really trying to get across is something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m90TtQdu94

(though obviously there would be killing involved instead of arresting with tazers and non-lethal stinger grenades )

Of course I don't want them to actually go in firing. But I want them to go in with the guns up and check the sides/front of the room right away BEFORE they all reach the waypoint. And that's why a light/heavy "clear room" command would be great. Heavy for when you KNOW enemies are in there so you throw in grenades first (this was something the Soviets did in every building they even SUSPECTED of being occupied in Stalingrad according to some stuff I've read... in fact apparently they sometimes went in with ONLY grenades and shovels), and light for when you don't.

What I mean is, I don't like the current, run into the room, wait for the whole squad to reach the WP, and THEN look for targets. Hope that makes sense.

But I totally realize Swat 4 is a FPS and I don't expect that level of animations by any stretch lol. As long as the RESULT is similar that would be exceedingly awesome.

@stikkypixie of course I don't expect it to make it so "I don't take casualties anymore". I just don't like having my ginormous Marine squad gun downed by a few guys with AKs in the corner because they have to all gallop in and then turn at what seems like an excruciatingly slow speed looking for targets.

Like I said, outdoor inf combat is great, it's only this that needs to be fixed.

And I'm sorry Steve but you can't put it all down to "people who complain suck at the game". Yes you can use suppressing fire from another squad or half your squad to "light area" fire every building you go into to "make sure" whoever is in there has their heads down, giving your entry team time to do their little dance, but like you said, this goes against the SOP and wastes a ton of ammo! It also looks ridiculous. As it is now, if I want to not risk losing half of my squad entering every building I have to suppress it first, and then enter. If you've got 50 buildings to clear, you WILL run out of ammo before that happens.

[stikkypixie]

@stikkypixie of course I don't expect it to make it so "I don't take casualties anymore". I just don't like having my ginormous Marine squad gun downed by a few guys with AKs in the corner because they have to all gallop in and then turn at what seems like an excruciatingly slow speed looking for targets.

My point is that reaction speed for the guys with the AKs are equally as excruciatingly slow so in the end it doesn't matter.

[Erwin]

Since RL has proven that MOUT is excruciatingly expensive in terms of casualties, not sure what the gripe is. You are bloody lucky (not necessarily good) if you can clear a defended block with minimal casualties.

The real problems in the game are issues like ATGM vehicles that cannot get hull-down benefit and that are almost suicidal to use. Only once in years of play do I recall getting to get a ATGM hit on an enemy tank without having the ATGM vehicle killed first.

[akd]

My issue is not really with SOPs (although I believe entering firing is one in many circumstances), animations or casualties ratios, but simply with the sort of excessive micro-management that CM orders are supposed to make unnecessary. Attempting to set up and time a movement + targeting order that results in getting a few grenades into the structure ahead of your troops, but doesn't result in expenditure of all the squad's grenades and a healthy chunk of ammo is a real bitch in real time (you have to baby sit every single squad as they play out their orders, timing the cancel target order down to the second to get a reasonable result), and basically impossible in WEGO. Even the specially organized urban assault units in CMSF are only good for clearing a handful of buildings.

I don't give a unit an assault/quick order into a structure under the assumption that the structure is empty. It would be both more intuitive and require less micromanagement to have the unit behave as would be expected in the vast majority of urban combat situations, i.e. to prep the room/structure with at least two grenades and possibly enter the room with controlled fire. The situations in which that would not be done are the minority in CMSF and probably non-existant in future CM WWII titles. If I should have to micromanage something in a wargame depicting infantry in urban combat, it should be making my units enter a structure as if it is not occupied by the enemy.

[noxnoctum]

Since RL has proven that MOUT is excruciatingly expensive in terms of casualties, not sure what the gripe is. You are bloody lucky (not necessarily good) if you can clear a defended block with minimal casualties.

The real problems in the game are issues like ATGM vehicles that cannot get hull-down benefit and that are almost suicidal to use. Only once in years of play do I recall getting to get a ATGM hit on an enemy tank without having the ATGM vehicle killed first.

I'm definitely NOT saying I shouldn't be taking casualties... but as it is right now... if I order say... using the assault command or hunt or quick, the attacking element will go to the WP, stop, and only then turn around and look for targets. (slowly I might add). This is what bothers me. It seems to be exclusive to building WPs too.

[Erwin]

I agree with akd's points. Re Nox's, I have always interpreted what one sees in the game as an abstraction. The "slow" look around would be the time it takes to check behind boxes, furniture etc. I think someone else also noted that the enemy may also be slow to fire at an assaulting team. I think speed of seeing depends on the quality of troops.

[Stingray]

One of my pet peeves is the "automatic surrender".

Many times, my pixel troops will be just a trun away from delivering the coup de grace when the game will end with the opponent surrendering. After all that great planning and manuvering ... the great Napoleon does not see the climactic end.

Perhaps, with CM-N, we can have to option to refuse the surrender and continue the battle.