Holiday Bones, Norman Style

[Secondbrooks]

Secondbrooks I'll see your rifles and BAR and raise you an MG-42 an MP-40, the odd MP-44 and Kar 98K's all firing smokeless ammo. Talking of the M1's effectiveness is there any data to show its superiority over the bolt action models?

What's that Secondbrooks? You'll see my MG and raise me a Platoon of M-4's a battery of 105's and a brace of P-38/47's!! But that's not fair!!

Looking forward to seeing if and how BF simulate the different tactical doctrines of the opposing infantry and will we have beaten zones for our MG's? Essential if you are to replicate the typical German defensive bocage layout. Talking of that will we have the infantry able to dig firing posts through the earthen banks? Oh and will AT guns, who have been pre-placed, have a concealment bonus? Oh and.... etc etc

I don't believe that MP-44 did have any considerable impact in Summer -44. If i'm wrong that changes the balance some what.

Semi-automatic rifles were loathed weapons, SVT Tokarevs left in field end up in hands of Finnish soldiers pretty much as rule (having same cartridge in their service bolt-action rifles so switch was painless).

Simple scenario: MG-42 gunner is shooting. Some guy with M1 spots it, takes aim and starts to fire. MG gunner understands that he has been spotted and shot at. He takes cover. Rifle guy keeps firing that spot. MG gunner either presses down in his cover or changes place. M1 guy received temporary superiority over MG-42 guy, while MG-42 is temporarily out of action. Ofcourse this is simple scenario. Determed MG-gunner might "ignore" threat and keep up firing and changing positions in haste manner and even survive that.

Theory behind it:

Rifles are accurate enough to have good point target effect to close ranges (lets say under or bit above 100 meters). Scoped ones has that to long ranges. Suppression is gained by rapid accurate enough shots in few seconds. Best and pretty much only description i've had for it: few shots with if few seconds (gaining suppression at target), after that one shot in every few seconds (keeping suppression up). Semi-automatic rifles can achieve that easily, bolt-locked rifles can keep up suppression, but gaining it will be harder. And German rifle has to be reloaded quite often.

MG's are good in area and point targets. Up to long ranges. But in Bocage guys are mostly working in close ranges. So pretty much every guy if he isn't armed with pistol is capable to deliver enough fire at point targets.

So that is the math. Naturally there's motivation stuff and human-mind stuff involved. Reason why most fearsome soldiers typically are favored to man weapons with most firepower (or as their leaders). I don't expect Germans to be different, so that MG might come back into firefight in rather fast tempo.

If we take CMSF approach it is rather clear (atleast to me) that weapons such as PK, M240 or M249 aren't that super when they get under fire from close range, user will be rendered useless atleast for sometime. M1 isn't that great as AK or M4, but i'd say that it's almost twice as effective as Kar98 when it comes to rate of fire for short moments. So i don't think Germans would have any considerable edge in firepower but both sides are rather egual. German might have superiority if they manage to keep up MG-42 firing but if they loose it then US side has edge.

My answer is that i necessarily won't need M-4s or 105mm or planes. But they would do good for me... If i have capacity to use them safely

[John Kettler]

Vark,

I've fired both a borrowed M1 Garand and my brother's Kar 98K. I can assure you that the ROF difference is substantial in favor of the M1 and that it's much easier to keep a target in the sights when firing rapidly. The Japanese "won the sweepstakes" at the Matanikau River in October at Guadalcanal when the Marines first employed the M1 in combat. The traumatized Japanese thought they'd run into a force armed with nothing but machine guns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actions_along_the_Matanikau

M1 Garand's significance

http://www.pattonhq.com/garand.html

Wiki on M1 Garand

This reiterates my original points and adds two others of great importance: The rate of fire negated banzai attacks which often succeeded against bolt action rifles, and the powerful 30 '06 cartridge had tremendous penetration, sometimes killing three Japanese with a single bullet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Garand

BFC and fellow grogs,

The Military Channel here in the States has a lot of Normandy programming in rotation, and I think it'd be a big help with CM:N. Day After D-Day, which I'm watching now, has wonderful interviews, period and modern ground truth footage, maps and battlefield walks with surviving veterans. A few glitches here and there, but basically first rate. There's even footage of 21 PD Alkett specials firing and a Puma!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Michael Emrys]

One other thing about the M1 that I will toss out for discussion. One author I read opined that the M1 had an advantage if a soldier was trying to maintain concealment while firing. The rationale was that the movement involved in working the bolt on a bolt action rifle would tend to give away one's position once the enemy was alerted and looking for the source.

Now, for my part I am a little skeptical about that line of argument. True, the M1 user can lie still while he is lining up his next target, but couldn't the bolt action rifleman arrange his position so that he could duck down or to the side while working his bolt and hide that movement? And anyway, the lack of smokeless powder for the M1 renders the whole question moot. GIs often complained that as soon as they opened fire their positions were visible enough to draw at least suppressive fire while they in their turn had great difficulty spotting the source of fire on themselves unless they happened to spot the muzzle flashes.

Michael

[flamingknives]

Interestingly, there is a well known incident featuring the SMLE in the hands of trained soldiers (the BEF) where the opposing side (German Conscripts) believed that they had run into a machine gun battlion, rather than the two Vickers the British Battalion actually had.

15 aimed shots per minute at an attacking force attacking in the open in column may have contributed.

To use the M1s effectiveness against Japanese charges as evidence of superiority is poor logic unless you can cite actual examples where bolt-action rifles, in the same situation, failed to stop a charge.

[Sergei]

I don't believe that MP-44 did have any considerable impact in Summer -44. If i'm wrong that changes the balance some what.

Looking at CMBO/CMAK TO&E's it appears that plain Grenadieren were quite poorly equipped (2 MP's, 1 MG) while mechanized infantry, Waffen SS and Fallschirmjägers kept most of the goodies to themselves. As in, SS Panzergrenadier squad would have had 3 Kar98, 2 MP-44, 2 MP-40 and 2 MG-42's in summer 1944... but even Fusiliers would have had 1 MP 44 at the time. Which is of course very practical when you have one more ammo type in the squad, since logistics can never be too complex and being able to share ammo between squad mates has always been overrated.

P.S. Funny thing, according to Wikipedia some StG-44's have been confiscated by the US in Iraq...

[John Kettler]

flamingknives,

The Wiki does cite such a situation, banzai charges vs. Chinese bolt action rifles (Mausers) and M1 Garands. Such charges generally succeeded against the Chinese Mausers, yet failed disastrously against first Army (164th Regiment) and later also Marine M1 Garands. Remember, prior to that, the Marines and Army alike had had M1903 Springfields, and the Japanese stopped the Marines cold in September 1942 at the Matanikau River, killing 62, wounding 100 and forcing the withdrawal of the rest. The Wiki on the banzai charge is also illuminating, since it lists the M1 Garand as the first weapon in the tactical combo for defeating the banzai charge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banzai_charge

"Against Allied troops armed with M1 Garands, Thompson Submachine Guns and Browning M1919 and M2 Machine Guns which could provide enough firepower to stop this kind of attack in its tracks, the banzai charge proved to be costly, despite having a chance of success, and its use was largely discontinued, except as a final suicidal gesture by surrounded Japanese forces."

Chapter VII of TM-E-30-480 Handbook on Japanese Military Forces explains Japanese infantry tactics, philosophy and why the Japanese preferred night attack.

http://ibiblio.net/hyperwar/Japan/IJA/HB/HB-7.html#II

For an excellent, richly illustrated account of the tactical buzzsaw the Japanese ran into, please see The Campaign for Guadalcanal, by Jack Coggins, pp. 99-104.

Regards,

John Kettler

[flamingknives]

Well, as we all know, Wikipedia is the be all and end all of well-researched articles on obscure military facts.

Sources on the Chinese experience with both bolt action and semi-automatic weapons would be interesting. The fewer variables to consider the better.

[Sergei]

Well, as we all know, Wikipedia is the be all and end all of well-researched articles on obscure military facts.

Because no WW2 history is complete without "Hitler in popular art" section, with a reference "see article: Hitler in anime".

[Vark]

Michael, I thought the reverse was true, due to the M1 automatically ejecting the clip after the eighth round, casing an unmistakable sound and signaling that the GI was vulnerable.

Flamingknives, are we talking Mons? If so the reason for the phenomenal ROF was the BEF being veterans, the M1's rate of fire was independent of the quality of the firer, though accuracy is another matter.

Talking of Banzai charges, is there any data regarding the Khalin Gol conflict between Japan and Russia, I know most of the former successes were due to nightime infantry attacks.

Normandy and deployment of the MP-44's brings up so much contradictory evidence that a little deduction should be used. 12,000 were produced by early 43 and the total run was just under 450,000. By July 44 Hitler has approved a significant ramping up of production and the weapon seems to have been initially distributed to elite units first, with the Eastern front a priority. It would be ok to speculate therefore that Paras in Normandy might have perhaps 1-2 MP-44's per squad with the 12 SS able to field some. I'm pretty sure in CM1 they were available to my "Waffen-Grenadiers" but CM2 will, I believe not feature such troops.

[flamingknives]

Well, you can work the action much faster than 15 rounds per minute even if you are a complete novice, but making those shots effective is what counts. Yes, it was Mons and the BEF, who were well versed in musketry. But this brings up another issue pertaining to the use of weapons. The skill of the user often overcomes the effectiveness of the weapon.

[YankeeDog]

Michael, I thought the reverse was true, due to the M1 automatically ejecting the clip after the eighth round, casing an unmistakable sound and signaling that the GI was vulnerable.

I've always thought a bit much was made of this. The "ping" sound made as the Garand ejects the clip is not particularly loud, and at typical combat ranges (100m+), I think it would take a very sharp-eared and perceptive enemy to be able to pick this out of the general battle noise and chaos. Also, despite what Hollywood would like us to believe, infantry combat does not generally take place 1:1, so knowing that one GI out of a squad is reloading is probably usually not particularly useful.

Normandy and deployment of the MP-44's brings up so much contradictory evidence that a little deduction should be used. 12,000 were produced by early 43 and the total run was just under 450,000. By July 44 Hitler has approved a significant ramping up of production and the weapon seems to have been initially distributed to elite units first, with the Eastern front a priority. It would be ok to speculate therefore that Paras in Normandy might have perhaps 1-2 MP-44's per squad with the 12 SS able to field some. I'm pretty sure in CM1 they were available to my "Waffen-Grenadiers" but CM2 will, I believe not feature such troops.

I've often wondered how BFC arrived at its estimates for the number of Stg44s in the field especially. It's not a easy thing to calculate, since the on-paper allotments are often very different from what was actually in the field. From what I've read, I sincerely doubt the units in place in Normandy on June 6, 1944 had very many, if any Stg44s. In the following weeks, I suspect the weapon would started to have a greater presence, especially amongst some of the better equipped units transferred from the East Front into Germany -- I have also read that most of the initial production of the Stg44 weapon was sent to the East Front. Also, IIRC, large numbers of the weapon were found still in warehouses in Germany at the end of the war, so you need to factor in that significant proportion of the Stg44s produced never made it into the hands of soldiers.

The whole logistics issue of having 3 types ammo within the squad is an interesting subject as well. I don't know if there's any data on this anywhere, but I'd be curious to know how good the ammo supply was for any Stg44s in Normandy. It certainly would have been the minority small arms caliber, and with the Resistance, tac air, and artillery wreaking havoc on German logistics, I wonder how easy it was for soldiers carrying the Stg44 to find more 7.92mm Kurz ammo for the weapon once they'd shot off the load they came into the theatre with... with ammo resupply now modeled in CMx2, we may actually see this in action.

[Rocky Balboa]

Watch who you're calling a "Nutter"...All Real CM Players know that Steve parts his hair right down the middle...That is proof positive that CMN is BFC's last gasp before bankruptcy

So Let's all shout it out...Gimmie a "B"...an "A".....

Ahem, I have bigger boobs than they do. Give me a B....give me a F....

Six, Your statement may be true but I dare say those birds look far better wearing halter and mini. Of course you beta testers are a close knit bunch so some of your fellows may wish to contradict me on that point.

[souldierz]

Looks like Steve's school photo is coming back to haunt him lol:).

Never knew BFC had a cheer leading squad.BFC would get more attention if they got them to post their pics along with their Modules:eek:.Id love to beta test those.

[BFCElvis]

If by "MP" (whatever that stands for apart, I presume from Military Police) you mean WEGO, that's there.

MP= Multi-player

It isn't our place to talk about features or changes that haven't been officially announced

[Wengart]

What kind of discussions are those GSX? Nutters saying CMSF will be 'abandoned' just like CMBO and CMBB and CMAK were 'abandoned'; 20+ patches worth of abandoned but oh no(!) now that is evidence BFC hoisted a lemon on the unsuspecting, loyal CMx1 fanbase. Nutters insisting CMBB/CMAK were unfinished.

I think those posts were referring to the historical tendency (CM:BO,CM:BB,CM:AK) for BF.C to eventually stop patching out bugs, and focus on the next iteration in the series. Of course these bugs are not game breaking, and in general are not that bad but they are there, like the ability for ATGs to fire through the crests of hills in CM:BB. We've not reached that point with a CMx2 game where it becomes legacy software, but we are nearing that mile stone with CM:SF.

However the one of the positives of the module system is it allows for a game to remain actively patched for as long as module are being produced for it.

[Ron]

I think those posts were referring to the historical tendency (CM:BO,CM:BB,CM:AK) for BF.C to eventually stop patching out bugs, and focus on the next iteration in the series. Of course these bugs are not game breaking, and in general are not that bad but they are there, like the ability for ATGs to fire through the crests of hills in CM:BB. We've not reached that point with a CMx2 game where it becomes legacy software, but we are nearing that mile stone with CM:SF.

However the one of the positives of the module system is it allows for a game to remain actively patched for as long as module are being produced for it.

What, BFC is different from the 99.9999% of other companies in their practice of discontinuing support at some point and moving on to a new game? I would ask BFC about their definition of bug and engine limitation. I would say the CMx1 franchise was pretty bugfree. Also the term abandoned has an entirely different connatation; something I'm sure not lost on those who love to use it in this context. Not trying to be argumentative, just I think a lot of people have entirely unrealistic expectations and attempt to hold BFC to some intellectual ivory tower standard.

[Secondbrooks]

Well, as we all know, Wikipedia is the be all and end all of well-researched articles on obscure military facts.

Sources on the Chinese experience with both bolt action and semi-automatic weapons would be interesting. The fewer variables to consider the better.

Umm... How about Finnish thing i posted earlier?

Here's bit what i could find:

http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/RIFLES4.htm

Finnish troops captured over 3,000 SVT-38 rifles during Winter War. Additional 17,000 SVT-38 and SVT-40 were captured during early part of Continuation War. These rifles were very popular among Finnish troops (hundreds were estimated being taken home as war souvenirs), which often took immediately captured Tokarev rifles to their own use. Sniper versions of both Tokarev rifles were very rare finds among weaponry captured by the Finns. However shortage of spare-parts was constant problem with these rifles, so before end of Continuation War over 14,000 of them had been handed over by the troops that had captured them and warehoused. Most of these rifles had ended to warehoused because of worn barrels and/or other broken parts and waited repairs, which were never done. One of the reasons behind these numerous breakages might have been Finnish ammunition (with 13-gram/200-grain D166 bullets), which most certainly wasn't designed for them. January of 1945 Finnish military ordered all not fit-for-combat Tokarev rifles to be scrapped. In 1950's remaining Tokarev rifles were used for training and some were repaired. Even plans about using their parts for new domestic automatic rifle surfaced. But as intentions focused to assault rifles the whole plan for domestic automatic rifle was buried. Year 1958 remaining Tokarev rifles were declared obsolete and sold abroad around 1959 - 1961.

While Tokarev automatic rifles seem to have been popular among Finnish soldiers during World War 2, Finnish Army wasn't quite as impressed about these rifles. Official wartime Armed Forced Ordnance Department report notes that while benefits of automatic rifle (vs. common bolt-action rifle) are obvious, durability and reliability of these captured rifles for combat use was still considered poor. The report lists following details:

Structure of the rifle stock is very weak. Almost all of these rifles handed over by the troops that captured them have broken stocks.

Receiver of the rifle is weak, it bends or even breaks easily.

If the cartridge chamber is dirty or corroded even in minor extent, the weapon will fail to extract used cartridge case. (Writer's note - rather harsh text, failure to remove used cartridge case is the typical problem for these rifles, but the harsh tone suggests that ammunition was not necessarily correct or gas-regulator setting may have been false).

Piston rod may slip from the piston preventing the bolt closing.

Sod and other remains of burned gunpowder will make the gas piston very dirty and (without proper maintenance) it will rust, making its removal impossible.

The gas-regulator adjustment may move on its own.

If attachment of the gas-regulator is too tight, it may distort the barrel.

Parts between individual rifles are not compatible.

When very worn, the rifle may go full-auto when fired.

Reliability of the rifle depends, how strong it is hold by the shooter. If hold loosely the rifle tends to work less reliably.

Finnish Army captured also few hundred select-fire AVT-40 rifles (mainly in summer of 1944) and as with other Tokarev rifles Finnish troops usually took them immediately to their own use. In Finland these rifles got the same fate as Tokarev semiautomatics. Finnish troops captured also small number of SVT-40 sniper rifles. As Finnish troops suffered constant acute shortage of sniper rifles these were pressed immediately to their own use. As usual the soldiers, who captured them also took many of the captured SVT-40 sniper rifles home as "war souvenirs".

Underline added by me.

[Battlefront.com]

YankeeDog,

I've often wondered how BFC arrived at its estimates for the number of Stg44s in the field especially. It's not a easy thing to calculate, since the on-paper allotments are often very different from what was actually in the field. From what I've read, I sincerely doubt the units in place in Normandy on June 6, 1944 had very many, if any Stg44s.

For something like this it basically comes down to guesses based on long study of such things. A broad study is necessary because there is no narrowed information to draw from. First person accounts, pictures, 3rd party studies, knowledge of which units came from where, re-equipment policies, usual problems with getting production to the front, production numbers, blah, blah, blah

As far as we can tell there were very, very few Mk42/MP43/MP44/StG44 in Normandy. Even the SS units that had exposure to them on the Eastern Front don't appear to have them in appreciable numbers. It is unlikely that many of them filtered into service during the Normandy campaign, and there were probably difficulties keeping them in service due to the unique ammo.

Wengart,

Ron has it right when he said...

What, BFC is different from the 99.9999% of other companies in their practice of discontinuing support at some point and moving on to a new game?

There are some people who feel we should have followed the route of Tiller or HPS in that we don't really do anything new, just keep on trucking with what we have already put out. If other developers wish to do that, fine, but to expect a developer to endlessly support a game is misguided (to say the least). We never said that we'd extend CMx1 forever and, in fact, stopped support of each CMx1 game in succession. CM:SF will, a some point, no longer be supported as well. The Module concept, as you said, does have the advantage of keeping a particular "Family" of games supported longer than any individual release. CM:SF will likely have about 3 years of active support vs. the 1-2 years of previous CM games.

Ron also makes a good point when he said...

Also the term abandoned has an entirely different connatation; something I'm sure not lost on those who love to use it in this context. Not trying to be argumentative, just I think a lot of people have entirely unrealistic expectations and attempt to hold BFC to some intellectual ivory tower standard.

That's a big issue. Some people criticize us for things that no other developer does and that we never promised. Saying that such people are "unreasonable" is an understatement.

Personally, as both a customer and a developer I think of "abandoned" as a product that was released and improperly supported. Specifically, left in the marketplace with basic and significant functionality/stability missing to the extent that the product is largely unusable. Anybody who thinks CMx1 fits that definition is insane. I do mean crazy. Someone who can play a game for 10 years straight and think that it is lacking something fundamentally important can not possibly have a good grip on reality.

Steve

[John Kettler]

Steve,

The National Firearms Museum (NFM), Fairfax, Virginia http://www.nramuseum.org/#/museum , which I was fortunate to tour last May, has a full scale room diorama set at the capture of St. Lo by the Army's 116th Infantry, 29 ID. In the center of the room is a pile of seized German weapons and gear, in which can plainly be seen a StG44, a sight which instantly got both my brother George, retired Army SFC and firearms grog who's "seen the elephant" and me excited. That pile is worth a young fortune, with enough weapons to equip an entire squad. This is in Gallery 11--Ever Vigilant. Since the NFM has access to people and info we can only dream about, I think a fair case can be made for including the StG44 in the new Normandy game. Further, I think it might be helpful to contact the NFM directly 703-267-1600. One of the Senior Curators is Philip Schreier, and he's the man to talk to. That same number may also be used to reach the highly specialized NFM Library.

Meanwhile, this should prove most useful, being exceedingly groggy. All about what units got the Stg 44 and how they were organized, in full detail. Sadly the 50Megs links are currently down over a billing issue.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=84874

This should also help and has pics.

http://www.ww2f.com/wwii-general/31852-assault-rifles-stg-44-normandy.html

Technically, though, we should be calling these weapons MP-44s, for the Sturmgewehr moniker wasn't applied until December of 1944.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as51-e.htm

Regards,

John Kettler

[Battlefront.com]

Captured gear in museums is normal as are historical depictions of a particular battle. In my experience the two are often blended together out of necessity since display space is at a premium. Unless there is a specific tag associated with a specific item, describing when and/or where it was captured, I assume it to be "general war booty" on display. For example, 45th Infantry Division's awesome museum (which includes the most extensive historical firearms collection I have ever seen... and I've seen some amazing ones) has small alcove rooms which are dedicated to a very specific portion of 45th ID history. One room was just about their liberation and subsequent occupation of Dachau. Another was about their "liberation" of Hitler's apartment in München. There were tags on each item detailing the item beyond mere identification.

Regardless, even if the MP44 (assuming that's what it was) was seized at St. Lo it tells me nothing I don't already know And that is various forms of the assault weapon (including MP43s) were certainly in France prior to the invasion. As were PPSh and tons of oddball "exotic" small arms from various nations. No doubt about this at all. But what sorts of numbers are we talking about? Anything less than a few thousand would make the weapon quite rare.

My guess is that there were a few hundred at most towards the beginning, likely with Leibstandarte, Das Reich, and possibly Hitler Jügend. That's because the first two were issued them in the East, and in fact were the test units for the prototypes IIRC, so they likely managed to hang onto some of them. HJ got a lavish amount of equipment and therefore might also have received some. Some here and there with other SS, FJ, and WH units probably as well.

Again, I think they were in theater, but the evidence is that their numbers were very small.

I have a disgustingly expensive book on the history of the entire Sturmgewehr family (IIRC it cost me nearly $80) so I'm all set on documentation. I've also got a dummy StG44 built from original parts, some DDR made 8mm Kurtz, extensive collection of pics of examples for sale, and some wonderful memories of firing a MP43 some years ago. Someday I'll have a fully functioning one, but I really have to be disgustingly rich before that happens because I'm a Yankee and can't justify shelling out $10,000 - $15,000 for a couple bits of metal that makes controlled chemical reactions! And even when I can, I have a Yankee wife to convince

Steve

[ASL Veteran]

Talking of Banzai charges, is there any data regarding the Khalin Gol conflict between Japan and Russia, I know most of the former successes were due to nightime infantry attacks.

I know of two books about the battle of Nomonhan between the Soviets and Japanese in 1939 and I have them both. "Nomonhan: Japan Against Russia, 1939" gives you a Japanese perspective on the entire campaign from beginning to end. It includes many personal accounts (Japanese personal accounts natch) and gives you a very detailed and comprehensive look at the campaign. The other book is called "Nomonhan: Japanese Soviet Tactical Combat 1939" and is an excellent complementary book to the first one. The second book focuses exclusively on the 2d Battalion, 28th Infantry Regiment of the 7th IJA Infantry division and has a lot of excellent scenario making material in it . The thing to keep in mind about Nomonhan is that the terrain is virtually desert with rolling hills. There was a steep slope / cliff on the Russian side of the River and the Russians dominated the battlefield with their artillery. Opportunities for Banzai charges were rare and I can only think of one example offhand from the second book that describes a night attack that overran a Soviet infantry position. The attack is not really described as a 'banzai charge' though so I don't know if it qualifies. Most of the fighting involved Japanese infantrymen trying to take out Soviet tanks with molotov cocktails.

There is a book out there also that covers the fighting between the Soviets and the Japanese in 1945 and I thought about picking it up but it's pretty expensive and the campaign was pretty short (lasting only a few weeks IIRC). I think it's by Glanz but I'm not positive ...... If anyone is interested I suppose I can quote the text about that night attack. It's pretty entertaining reading - especially since it's from the Japanese point of view. Night attacks were SOP for the Japanese btw. They trained for night combat regularly and specialized in night fighting.

[John Kettler]

Steve,

The AxisHistoryForum discussion above makes some excellent points about how the MP-44/StG-44 equipped units completely reversed the normal German squad emphasis, with the LMG now supporting the assault rifle troops, rather than Kar 98K armed Landser supporting and protecting the LMG. I found the discussion fascinating.

I'd imagine the good folks at the 29th ID Historical Society can not only tell you what was captured at St. Lo in the category of interest, but can probably hook you up with some veterans from the named 116th.

http://www.29infantrydivision.org/index.htm

Here's a 7-page account of the battle the NFM diorama depicts. It's helpful in that it identifies the German units opposing the 29th ID (early on Panzer Lehr, later 3 FGD, both units with high new equipment priorities) and gives phenomenal flavor as to how tough things were even at that stage of the battle.

http://www.29infantrydivision.org/WWII-Battles/St-Lo/St-Lo_01.htm

Here's a remarkable tidbit from Bando & Bando's 101st Airborne: The Screaming Eagles, p. 47 regarding Dan McBride of the 502nd http://books.google.com/books?id=MdTVVK2J4CMC&pg=PA47&lpg=PA47&dq=mp44+first+u.s.+encounter&source=bl&ots=o88XzFos9R&sig=yeBffpj5SAmp8fCb5Pjjs0_Pvmc&hl=en&ei=8w48S-OnJYyCsgPDn53zDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CBwQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=&f=false

(Fair Use)

"American paratroopers would encounter this type of weapon (MP-44) frequently until the end of World War II...Troopers dubbed it the 'Buck Rogers gun."

This encounter took place on D-Day.

Donald Burgett fought with the 506th, and he also talked, someone said earlier, about the "Buck Rogers gun." Since he's still alive, why not ping him?

http://www.donaldrburgett.com/drb-bio.php

Piat, in this somewhat fractured translation says 2 PD was armed with MP-44s, and Acrobat unimportant apparently posted a pic of a GI posing with an MP-44.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://dday-overlord.forumactif.com/operations-aeroportees-et-batailles-aeriennes-f8/para-us-confronte-pour-la-premiere-fois-au-sturmgewehr-44-t1702.htm&ei=KhU8S4_7MIbesgPZ4fm-BA&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBcQ7gEwBA&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522buck%2Brogers%2Bgun%2522%2Bmp44%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DEYW

This militaria site lists the priority receiving units for the initial batches. All SS except GD.

http://www.efour4ever.com/stg44.htm

WW II Screaming Eagle veteran Walter Marlowe helpfully tells us whom he fought--FJ Regiment 6, which he greatly respected, as opposed to the SS and VG, whom he loathed. Page 3 provides some great info on combat ammo loads for the Screaming Eagles, and the overall thread, which continues, is a must read.

http://www.ww2f.com/honor-service-valor/32352-walter-marlowe-101st-airborne-division-2.html

Per Feldgrau.com, FJR.6 of 2.FJD definitely fought at Normandy.

http://www.feldgrau.com/2FJD.htm

I close with a fun thread of others using/posed with captured German weapons.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=99527

My conclusion is that the MP-44 was a lot more common in Normandy than your research so far suggests. It was encountered from D-Day on, and by no means just in SS hands.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Battlefront.com]

Hi John,

Thanks for the follow up posts. They really don't have anything more to offer, though, as they don't add to what we (collectively) already know to be the case. Let me restate:

My guess is that there were a few hundred at most towards the beginning, likely with Leibstandarte, Das Reich, and possibly Hitler Jügend. That's because the first two were issued them in the East, and in fact were the test units for the prototypes IIRC, so they likely managed to hang onto some of them. HJ got a lavish amount of equipment and therefore might also have received some. Some here and there with other SS, FJ, and WH units probably as well.

Again, I think they were in theater, but the evidence is that their numbers were very small.

As I already said, I know they were there and I am sure that they were more than just a few units of one stripe with them. Now, keep in mind that a few hundred is actually more than it sounds like. On average a German Rifle Squad might have 2 or so "machine pistols". Obviously the MP-40 was the king of that domain by far, even through to the end of the war. A full strength Battalion had 27 Squads, which means around 60 or so machine pistols, including HQs. Even if the MP44 was found at a ratio of 1:3 against the MP40, that's 20 MP44s per Battalion. That would mean 120 MP44s could outfit the equivalent of a full strength infantry type division (6 Battalions in either 2 or 3 Regiments). I doubt the ratio was even close to that since at war's end it likely was only just getting to that level.

Whatever the case is, the numbers were almost definitely small in Normandy. I can very, very safely say this because the Sturmgewehr remained a fairly limited issue weapon all the way through the end of the war. The last authorized reorganization of infantry units had the Sturmgewehr as the standard weapon of the Rifle Squad, but it is unlikely this ever took place. After the war the Allies found huge stocks of brand new StG44s sitting in warehouses unable to make it to the front. IIRC about 25% of all produced never made it to the front.

So there we go. CM: Normandy will have MP44s included, but they will be a pretty rare thing to see in the game. As CM moves forward in time towards the end of the war the frequency of Sturmgewehrs will increase decidedly, as will the total amount of "machine pistols" in general.

Steve

[MikeyD]

I do have to chuckle over the Stg-44 post. We aren't out of modern war for three minutes and already y'all want to bring in an assault rifle!

[LukeFF]

So there we go. CM: Normandy will have MP44s included, but they will be a pretty rare thing to see in the game. As CM moves forward in time towards the end of the war the frequency of Sturmgewehrs will increase decidedly, as will the total amount of "machine pistols" in general.

On a somewhat related note, will we see G41s and G43s in CM:N, and if so, how common/rare will they be?